A Paragliding Observation

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:30 pm

Looking back through the 2007 club XC league trying to find inspiration for 2008 something caught my eye and I'm wondering what the explanation is.

Apart from the guys at or near the top of the XC league who were regularly doing good "Open XC Flights Over the back" The rest of the pilots in the League were clocking up their miles primarily with ridge runs and not "Open XC" With the odd exception here and there.

One flight that caught my eye was one that Brian Day did down in the Peak district from Mam Tor. I hate to say this as he's always taking the piss out of me, but that was very nearly a very credible (complete) triangle.

There's been some very good flying from some our pilots abroad in big conditions but not so in the UK.

Ridge runs are great fun and quite skillful so don't think for one minuite this is a post where I'm having a dig as I'm not at all. But I'd like the hear from other members why there seems to be a shortage of "UK Open XC" from our club pilots.

Is it the fear about landing in the boonies? or lack of comittment? or confidenece? Maybe this will be the year when this all changes?

Any thoughts

JW

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:52 pm

well for me last year was a year where is circumstances had been different i am sure that you would of seen some big ones. the start to the season was good and i was flying longer higher and further every time i flew. but as you well know everything changed and as for this year i have lost the hunger dew to lack of flying but lots of trying, patience is going to be the name of the game for me this this year and we will see. the one thing i can say is i wont be beet on the same hill on the same day

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:41 pm

the one thing i can say is i wont be beet on the same hill on the same day

A bold statement indeed I'll put £50.00 you are

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:21 am

i didnt say in what i was going to be beat in?

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:39 pm

Cheers John, a compliment from such an accomplished pilot is graciously received.

The completion of the triangle was thwarted by a sea breeze that came in from the west, which meant my final leg turned to an into wind leg. A little more local knowledge would have seen me do an initial 'downwind' leg to the west and pick up the sea breeze for a downwind return. I was kicking myself, because on the walk up I was talking to a local pilot who mentioned the sea breeze and the local forecast for the afternoon was a light westerly, not the light easterly we took off in. Lack of knowledge and lack of experience, but it is a flight I will never forget, it was brilliant.

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:20 am

John Wallis wrote: Apart from the guys at or near the top of the XC league who were regularly doing good "Open XC Flights Over the back" The rest of the pilots in the League were clocking up their miles primarily with ridge runs and not "Open XC" With the odd exception here and there.

JW

Personally I've always thought the XC League on this site should only contain flights that meet the criteria for the club XC League competitions. At the moment you have loads of 1.6km flights which does look a bit silly under a heading that says XC League. Is there not a way that non qualifying flights can be filtered out so when we open up the XC League we get a true reflection of who's in the lead for the club trophies?

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:13 pm

People put there flights on there because they enjoy doing so, it provides enjoyment for all.

What would you rather look at, something or nothing?

I know some people get on there high horse about this being called and XC league. Well thats is what it is, if there was 20 pilots putting in regular 20k+ flights it might satisfy those who think it should look like that.

Not the XC leagues fault we are all shite!

Maybe if the club had looked at the idea of a Northern League we would have something that might be up to your standard Dave.

Post by **colin keightley** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:54 pm

Dave are you complaining about something you dont even use apart from watching it as I cant find you anywhere on it

Sad Northerner · Post by **Sad Northerner** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:59 pm

There are a few things I feel I should add to your observation John. Look at all the big flight done by the NHPC boys and then look at the location they were done from and you'll get my drift. The skills and potential of our pilots are not realised simply because we are not flying at sites with 'good' XC potential/consistency.

Secondly, using a ridge to fly down does present difficulties in itself and does require certain skills but, for the inexperienced pilot it does represent a more tangible clue as to where lift can be found, it also does away with the 'age old conundrum' of 'when do I know when I'm high enough to go over the back?'

A lot can be learnt by looking at Chris Fosters results for 2007. Chris smashed his personal best several times in 07 flying new and unfamiliar sites and , although Chris is very modest about his ability he did have it underlined by finishing in a good position in his first BPC.

Simply put we need to cut our tether from Northumberland and head to the site with the most potential.

Cheers

Ali

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:56 pm

Simply put we need to cut our tether from Northumberland and head to the site with the most potential.

Totally agree Ali if you want distance don't go to Northumberland as nice as it is. Isn't it strange that we've got some of the crappiest sites in the country (My opinion) Yet a vibrant club membership. How does that work

I don't know I'm just glad it does.

Dave are you complaining about something you dont even use apart from watching it as I cant find you anywhere on it

He needs an engine these days Colin

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:43 pm

colinkeightley wrote:Dave are you complaining about something you dont even use apart from watching it as I cant find you anywhere on it

I don't use it cause I don't fly with a GPS. Okay I don't go XC much either but that's all due to change this summer.......

It seems to me like the club has two XC leagues, the one on this forum and the real XC League, the one that counts to the club trophies (minimum 10km for hang gliders 6km for paragliders, flights in the UK only), which incidentally I could enter as you don't need GPS for that one.

I just think it would be nice to go on the web site and easily see who's leading the real competition

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:59 am

I just think it would be nice to go on the web site and easily see who's leading the real competition

You can Dave, because you will find the GPS comp IS the results. I dont recall a none gps flight getting counted in the last 2 years. I might be wrong but to me it has just become standard to have a GPS (bar the die hards) and for such a tiny cost, why not.

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:21 am

Fingers wrote:

I dont recall a none gps flight getting counted in the last 2 years.

Well I'm about to change that Steve. Marske to Skinningrove and back yesterday with no GPS. Luckily I had Alan right behind me to verify this so with a turnpoint witness this is all legal as an entry for the winter XC League.

I know I should buy a GPS, but spending 100 quid on something which doesn't do anything to aid my flying, the only use of which is to prove to other people I've done what I know I've done anyway, well, I can think of better things to spend my money on.

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:26 am

Fingers wrote:
I just think it would be nice to go on the web site and easily see who's leading the real competition
You can Dave, because you will find the GPS comp IS the results.

Well, for a start you have to sift out the foreign flights. Then someone who has six 5km flights will show above someone who has one 29km flight. The 29km flight counts for the competition but the 5km flights don't.....

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:37 am

Nice flight Dave.

which doesn't do anything to aid my flying

It does quite a bit to aid you Dave, even the simplest of gps will give you ground speed. Which on its own tells you the speed and what direction the wind is blowing.... imposible to do this without a gps, unless your under 200-300 foot above the gound. Just one of the benifits, the more expensive ones tell you much much more......

I dont need to tell you the benifits of this info.

I am very very supprised you dont use one for the micro light.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:50 am

Well, for a start you have to sift out the foreign flights

Dave XC league / Main menu / My settings / set default to UK. I've got it set up just to the hang Gliders in the club so you see exactly who's winning. If I want to see how the PGs are doing just select the icon of the PG left hand top of the screen.

Good flight yesterday you should feed off that for a while.

I've just had Tony Anderson on the phone especially to tell me he's gone flying down to the model ridge.

You've got to laugh.

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:51 am

Fingers wrote:Nice flight Dave.

which doesn't do anything to aid my flying
It does quite a bit to aid you Dave, even the simplest of gps will give you ground speed. Which on its own tells you the speed and what direction the wind is blowing.... imposible to do this without a gps, unless your under 200-300 foot above the gound. Just one of the benifits, the more expensive ones tell you much much more......

I dont need to tell you the benifits of this info.

I am very very supprised you dont use one for the micro light.

I do use one in the microlight Steve. It's fitted so I can't take it out to use for hang gliding, and yes, in the microlight it is extremely useful to know exact ground speed for purposes of fuel management. Less so on the hang glider (no fuel). You just need to know if it's getting too windy and approximate wind direction. Plenty of other signs to tell you this. An expensive linked GPS and vario to give speed to fly, glide angle etc would be extremely useful but we're talking a lot more money here.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:08 am

If you dont turn your gps off when you land then take off again. Does the uploaded track count on our League.? I know its for fun but I also think fair play should count too.

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:40 am

I've never read so much rubbish about the comments of our Northumbrian sites... especially from members who don't fly them very much ? as you call them 'crapp' John these sites have done me proud - ranked 17th in the world at one point, national XC records, and national titles.

Your very quick to forget that also our club won the National Club hanggliding championships four times all due to training on these sites that you call crap! our club membership has been healthy for years all due to excellent training sites in Northumberland.

If the weather is good for X.C. flying, there is no inland site in the country that will not do the buisness... its then down to the pilot how well he does.

My first XC was from West hill 3 miles...1978 ! since then I've had many flights in Northumberland over 40 miles out and returns West hill to Wooler ! convergence flights to 7600ft asl, wave flights to 4000ft asl.

I agree there are bigger sites in the UK and going XC from them is easier but onc'e over the back its down to pilot skill to how far you fly.

Dave Hume, my flight yesterday was down to having a GPS on board. There was at least four times I nearly turned back because of strong head winds and with the GPS giving me invaluable information (instead of by the seat of my pants) I completed the flight.

Rant over.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:47 am

These are easly spotted and in most cases the xc league will infact edit a flight itself and desregard any data after touchdown. However I would imagine before any badges are handed over the winning flights would be checked.

It would be best that people do the right thing and edit their flights before uploading. And GPS or not if you land then your flight is finished there.

EDIT

this was ref Niels post

If you dont turn your gps off when you land then take off again. Does the uploaded track count on our League.? I know its for fun but I also think fair play should count too.

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:14 am

(I dont recall a none gps flight getting counted in the last 2 years.)

I dont know how to make the qoute thing work but I always fly eith GPS but have never put a flight on the board

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:53 am

Bill I think your doing well to manage to post text into the board with your gas powered computing device, nevermind anything else.

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:53 am

Sorry if I'm being thick here guys but.....

The XC League shows Alan's flight from yesterday as 7.5km distance, so therefore an out and return of 15km. As I understand it O & Ts score double in the Winter XC League. Therefore the score should be 30 km, but the table shows 22km.

Could someone explain?

Dave

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:03 pm

Dave Hume wrote:Sorry if I'm being thick here guys but.....

The XC League shows Alan's flight from yesterday as 7.5km distance, so therefore an out and return of 15km. As I understand it O & Ts score double in the Winter XC League. Therefore the score should be 30 km, but the table shows 22km.

Could someone explain?

Dave

Why do I get the feeling this will be asked again, and again, and again.

The XC League works off OLC scoring, which is totaly different to the Nat XC

This post has been a sticky for nearly a year now.

http://www.nhpc.org.uk/nhpc/viewtopic.php?t=1943

PS

Nice to see you doing some flying Ron,.... just goes to show its skill that matters.

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:14 pm

Fingers wrote:
Why do I get the feeling this will be asked again, and again, and again.

The XC League works off OLC scoring, which is totaly different to the Nat XC

And the club XC League scores the same as the National XC League, right?

What was I saying about the club having two XC Leagues?

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:54 pm

You either took no notice or missed it Dave, but that ship has sailed, for me anyhow. I have no idea what the official club scoring is.

As far as I am concerned, I believe in simplicity and an easy life. The club has a vehicle for automatically scoring all manner of comps using 4 different disciplines.

Open distance

3 point turn (NAT XC league rules without the multiplications)

OLC (the OLC version of the NAT XC league rules with the multiplications)

FAI Triangle

The club has the choice to embrace this and learn about it or reject it. I have lost much more than just interest in trying to show this club what has been put in there laps. On a positive note however the majority of PEOPLE seem to be using it, so why sould there even be any doubt about what the NHPC XC League is and which rules are we using?

Personaly, without a gps trace today meens to other people you have done nothing, nada, zilch.... If you want to do XC's and have them count for anything, are you telling me £50 is to much to pay.?

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:09 pm

Fingers wrote:You either took no notice or missed it Dave, but that ship has sailed, for me anyhow. I have no idea what the official club scoring is.

As far as I am concerned, I believe in simplicity and an easy life. The club has a vehicle for automatically scoring all manner of comps using 4 different disciplines.

Open distance

3 point turn (NAT XC league rules without the multiplications)

OLC (the OLC version of the NAT XC league rules with the multiplications)

FAI Triangle

The club has the choice to embrace this and learn about it or reject it. I have lost much more than just interest in trying to show this club what has been put in there laps. On a positive note however the majority of PEOPLE seem to be using it, so why sould there even be any doubt about what the NHPC XC League is and which rules are we using?

Personaly, without a gps trace today meens to other people you have done nothing, nada, zilch.... If you want to do XC's and have them count for anything, are you telling me £50 is to much to pay.?

I seem to remember something about this from ages ago. For now can some body remind me. Is the Club XC League scored on this OLC business which neither me or anybody else seems to understand, or on the good old fashioned simple maths which anybody can work out?

As I remember it the club league is supposed to be run along the rules of the National XC League. Does the National Paragliding XC League use OLC scoring? I believe the National Hang Gliding XC League uses ordinary scoring. In which case do we have different scores for paragliding and hang gliding?

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:35 pm

Dave it was voted on a few meetings back to "Simplify things" Winter XC league 01/01/2008 - 31/03/2008 scored on OLC points. No matter how weird it appears to be we are all scoring on the same system which makes it fair. The summer XC league will be scored using the Open distance part of the program. Again fair as we are all on the same system. If you want to score as national XC league rules post your flight to the national XC league.

At the end of the day this is for fun in the club and the best pilots will still win no matter what system is used.

You must be the only pilot in the club that doesn't bother with a GPS even I bought one and agree with the others about how important having your ground speed there in front of you is.

On ebay new £45.00

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Garmin-eTrex-HAND ... dZViewItem

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:40 pm

I've never read so much rubbish about the comments of our Northumbrian sites... especially from members who don't fly them very much ? as you call them 'crapp' John these sites have done me proud - ranked 17th in the world at one point, national XC records, and national titles.

Your very quick to forget that also our club won the National Club hanggliding championships four times all due to training on these sites that you call crap! our club membership has been healthy for years all due to excellent training sites in Northumberland.

If the weather is good for X.C. flying, there is no inland site in the country that will not do the buisness... its then down to the pilot how well he does.

My first XC was from West hill 3 miles...1978 ! since then I've had many flights in Northumberland over 40 miles out and returns West hill to Wooler ! convergence flights to 7600ft asl, wave flights to 4000ft asl.

But Ronnie you are completely missing the point. This is "My Opinion" and in my opinion and probably a lot of others most of the sites in Northumberland are crap.

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:34 pm

[quote="John Wallis"]Dave it was voted on a few meetings back to "Simplify things" Winter XC league 01/01/2008 - 31/03/2008 scored on OLC points. No matter how weird it appears to be we are all scoring on the same system which makes it fair.

So does that mean my first ever winter XC doesn't count? Methinks the club is just conspiring to rob me of my moment of glory.....

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