Attention Club Coaches

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:02 pm

With the end of the season looming would the coaches give a bit thought to who the Graeme Thirlwell trophy should go to. This trophy is for the most improved pilot in 2008.

Could you please PM your nominations to me please.

JW

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:35 pm

You mean we have club coaches?

Misk · Post by **Misk** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:10 pm

Give them a prod Jim. I'll bet that if you ask you'll be amazed at the help you can get............

We all step in if we see something dangerous but it's not always easy being a coach until it is clear that your opinions are wanted.

Bob Sutherland · Post by **Bob Sutherland** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:12 pm

Jim Bittlestone wrote:You mean we have club coaches?

One for every day of the week,and some. Only a phone call away. Give it a try.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:47 pm

Well there's been a few posts over the last couple of weeks to mention that club coaches will be out in there droves. I know Ian and Gary have posted but I'm not sure what the response was like. I know Chris and Jan have been spending time with Brian and Eddie. Brian Day has offered time before each monthly meeting and I don't know what the response to that was either.

Unlike the Cumbrians we don't seem to go for the "Coaching Day" in this club, However there is always an abundance of help out on the hill or at the end of a telephone people only have to ask, and if we see something wrong or someone needing help we will step in.

Also worth remembering that all club coaches are not necessarily high hour experienced pilots. They are people who have done a 2 day course in their own time just to help other people. In short they are approachable people who are willing to help if they can.

http://www.nhpc.org.uk/coaching.php

Actually how many pilots are out there who do actually want coaching help? Please leave your name below and maybe we can start to get something going. If we get no response we'll take it that everyone is happy.

Coaches are you ready?

AlastairW · Post by **AlastairW** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:03 pm

The most difficult thing as a coach is stepping in to give advice when it is not wanted, and risking alienating the individual.

Just give any of us a shout Jim, either by ringing one of us before going out, or asking on the hill.

We really dont bite!

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:18 pm

i think that because are club is so vibrant now and a great web site there is no excuse not to be out with either a coach or other more experienced pilots. this was not the case 3 years ago, but now it must be great just hook on the websitwe or send a text and hey presto you will be flying with otheres. the good thing about flying with more experienced pilots than yourself, is you will more than likely get flying more with more safety, and with a spot like ours you never know when you might need help.

cheers Gary 07890276630

143.950

Post by **colin keightley** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:27 pm

Im interested in some coaching but as you all know I dont always have the money to go anywhere and ofcourse I only have sunday off work so although it may seem im not interested I AM.

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:32 pm

All students are strongly advised to get to know at least three coaches when leaving a BHPA registered school.

Stick with them like glue...you will stay safe and.. you will half the time of the huge learning thats ahead of you !!!

A big part of our sport are the sites that you will fly and get to know !

The more you understand them the better your decision will be when its time to check the weather and pick a site.

Happy flips, HG/PG coach

Bob Sutherland · Post by **Bob Sutherland** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:33 pm

I get calls from Phil Woodhouse and John thomson when the weathers good and more recently Ross Sibbald is keen to get the hours in.
Contact from the new Hang glider members is happening.

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:41 pm

Come on guys, there's a world of difference between pointing out something obvious that we can see about to go wrong on a hill and coaching.
All new pilots need and want coaching, some I've spoken to aren't keen to keep posting/ asking as the club seems to be set up mainly for XC and flying with friends.
I have posted plenty of times and have ended up alone on a hill or flying with other local pilots as much as ours. I am grateful for advice I have received as I posted earlier, but it's been harder than I invisaged.
I know not everyone has my days off - god forbid, the country would come to a standstill.

Perhaps its my expectations that are wrong.

It's actually a question on the CP exam now.
What will you do next?
a) Book on an SIV course
b) Join a club and get continued coaching to gain the pilot qualification
c) Learn to Acro
d)etc
(b is correct)

Until there is a more structured approach to coaching, actively encouraging newbies to get their pilots qualification if they want to, then we newbies are missing out and therefore not as safe as we could be.
I was told this would happen when I joined a club. A "seamless continuation in education" was how it was put.
It seems to be the way the BHPA want it done.

To put the onus on a new member who knows no-one from Adam is wrong in my opinion. Not everyone is forward or confident to go and seek out a coach.
As for low/ medium airtimers coaching, whilst this is commendable for safety, is it really that useful for technical questions/ education
perhaps?
I know this has been discussed many times on the forum and I'm probably just P***ing in the wind, but we really do need coaching - it's a dangerous world out there.
If you look at this from the point of view of a newbie, it's daunting to ring people and get knocked back or post and get no answer. Perhaps the newbie feels like they are getting in the way?
In my humble opinion, the way it is, doesn't seem to work too well and it could be better.
How?
Lectures, coaching days, technical posts, first thermal, first XC, etc.
Trying to help and not criticise, honest.
Jim

Misk · Post by **Misk** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:53 pm

Jim I think it was only last year 20+ pilots went from CP to P within the NHPC. Way back in the files on this site are many links associated with mock exams and online revison aids - you may dig them up with a couple of seaches.

There was a time when the club went out groundhandling on the town moor and brought on the confidence of new pilots but that died off due to lack of interest.

Coaches will not go looking for new guys but will be delighted to help if rung up. If days off / sites coincide then I'm always happy to help - I'm sure I speak for all coaches whether they are in the NHPC or not.

We're all adults adn pasionate about a common sport - ringing a coach should not be so difficult. By posting you may well start the next wave and perhaps some new coaching formats...........

Sad Northerner · Post by **Sad Northerner** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:06 pm

This issue of coaching needs to be discussed at the next meeting. I intend to be there to give my opinion.

Ali

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:08 pm

Lectures, coaching days, technical posts, first thermal, first XC, etc.

All valid points Jim. When Ian Miskin was living in Newcaslte he ran several lecture nights that were not only good for the novice pilot they were most enjoyable for "Experienced Pilots" wanting a refresher. It's about time he moved back down to the Toon so he can do them again, they were just the best.

Coaching days: Well let's see what the response is from pilots wanting help.

Technical posts: Great idea you will always get plenty of opinions but the question has to be asked or you could spend half your life typing on info that is ready available in books.

First thermal and first XC are always good talking points and are big deals for a novice pilot.

A few people work shifts like yourself you need to find out who works similar hours and try to meet up. I'm only weekends with the very odd day off during the week.

Get to the AGM and bring these points up they are good. Something just might happen.

JW

lanceg · Post by **lanceg** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:44 am

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

IF ANYONE SEES ME DOING SOMETHING THEY CONSIDER TO BE DAFT AND/OR DANGEROUS - YOU HAVE MY PERMISSION TO EXPRESS YOUR FEELINGS AND, IF YOU WISH, PROVIDE ASSISTANCE/ADVICE ETC.

I SHALL ALWAYS REGARD MYSELF AS A BEGINNER OF THIS SPORT.

MANY THANKS

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:55 am

the best advise i would give is hook up with someone close by to whhere you live. this way you travel togeather and can learn as much enroute to a site. not only that it saves on fuel and also gives better chance of retreives. i

i have only been flying just over 3 years and have gone from cp to over 300hours and none of this was with a club coach by my side. though i spent a lot of time getting info along the way and everytime i fly i am learning.

gordie · Post by **gordie** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:38 am

gary stenhouse wrote:i think that because are club is so vibrant now and a great web site there is no excuse not to be out with either a coach or other more experienced pilots.

It could be a great website if you put your sites guide online. Until then it does seem like your website is just an introverted special interest forum.

Chris L · Post by **Chris L** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:05 am

I am more than happy to help people starting off in the sport, please just give me a call. All the coaches contact details are on the web-site under Club Coaching, and as Ian has said I'm certain that if you ring around you'll find someone going out when you are. If not then ask them for advice on any site you are planning on visiting.
No one will mind you ringing them otherwise they would not be on the list
If you get to a site and have any concerns then its worth putting in tel nos of a few coaches to call up for advice, if none are around.
I found that you'll learn a lot more quickly if you can arrange to meet up and go flying with more experienced pilots or coaches, and keep asking questions

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:08 am

Site Guide is below. As said
before it never got finished due to work pressures. I was talking to Mike Fenny the other night and he actually said he would love to complete what he's started but at the Moment he just doesn't have the time.

What he's done so far is class.

http://www.aerositeguide.com/

Plus when you zoom in you will see all the notams that have been issued

AlastairW · Post by **AlastairW** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:55 am

I have now posted as a sticky the link to the online sites guide.

So it is not impossible to find it......

Or just bookmark the link in your browser.

I fully understand Jims reticance at effectively "cold calling" club members who he does not know from Adam.

But the reality is that anyone who is prepared to be a coach is more than happy to get a call from a new club member.

Otherwise the club coach is left with the onus of having to ring round the new club members, which is really not practical.

Claire Smith · Post by **Claire Smith** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:45 am

I always love to have someone coaching me and I think most of the Club Coaches are well aware of that by now!! I would never be offended by anyone trying to give some friendly advice and I don't think that any low airtime, newly qualified or even new to a site pilot should be.

I know I bang on about what our friends in the West do in terms of coaching but here is a great example of their system working. I joined a coaching day earlier this year with "Dangerous" Dave. Dave took down the mobile numbers of people flying that day and must have saved them as a "coaching group". I now frequently get texts (and got one last night) to say he is out and coaching tomorrow giving a meeting place and time if you want to go along. On the day I joined he organised the site, cars, bottom landing field and set a couple of small tasks i.e. using speed bar and big ears then stuck around on take off until everyone was off safely, he then took off himself and occasionally gave some info over the radio. It turned out to be my best flight this year.

I do also agree with Jim that our club is driven towards achieving XCs (not sure that we actually achieve many of them though)! Because of this and the competitive nature of most pilots I don't think that many people want to be hanging around and talking people through things as they are focused on getting that next 2km ridge run at Horden!! I guess this is more so this year as the weather has been so poor, why would you want to be on the ground talking to someone if you could be in the air flying............. but isn't that what wearing the badge is about.

And to finish on a positive note, although not really a structured coaching programme, if you do shout loud enough there are always folk willing to help.

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:05 pm

There is of course another way,
which is to have structured coaching days, when newbies know that they are invited to be coached, not getting in the way of a days flying.
It would work better all round I think. Linked with lectures, study material, mock exams (as suggested by Ian - cheers), structured, easy to find information, perhaps newbie accuracy comps etc. A link between us and you experienced folk.
Beer tokens and retreives could be payment, it's not all one way traffic

I know, I don't want much, but experience, knowledge and safety is where I'm coming from here with efficiency.
Our members should not have to join another club to get this.
We should have it. In some cases we do have it, but it's not a general thing for all and perhaps it could be.

I'm not getting at anyone here, far from it, you guys have looked after my welfare on the hill and off. I feel safe and well advised, but I also want to learn more and not leave it to chance.

We have some very talented members who could all contribute toward others development and safety. It would be wrong and too onerous in my opinion to leave this to a few, better to share the load.
I realise of course that some people may have done the coaching course to increase their own personal experience which is great, and not all would be interested in coaching on set days, but surely we have enough coaches that would?
The vibrancy of the club cannot be denied, the fact that this is mostly geared toward XC gets overlooked in my opinion.

Gary's comment of having 300 hours in post CP and none of it with a club coach makes my point.

The fact that 20+ members gained their pilots qualification 12 - 18 months ago is great, but let's not rest on our laurels and put something in place so that all newbies can acheive this.
If some sort of induction methodology is put into place it would not be so onerous on one or two persons each time. We are all learning all of the time, lectures and talks would benefit the vast majority.
Enough rant.
I do appreciate the help and advice given on and off the hill by coaches and others, I've learnt loads since joining, I just think that it's a good time to formalise this with the AGM coming up. It needs to be a collective decision supported by the coaches and committee. This is as good a time as any to take the club forward again.

This forum is the envy of other clubs, the XC team are one of the best in the country. We have the skills, we just ain't using them that efficiently for the benefit of all.
It's time to get our heads out of the sand, cos it's gonna be a long winter reading all my rants

Unfortunately, I can't make the meeting which is why I'm putting my thoughts and opinions here,
I'm actually at work

Cheers
Jim

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:36 pm

Gary's comment of having 300 hours in post CP and none of it with a club coach makes my point

Ahhh but the difference is Gary is the type of bloke to make things happen he doesn't wait to be held by the hand he actually finds out who knows what and learns from them. An example: when he started hang gliding last year who did he turn too? The club coaches well yes one or two of us, but mainly he went direct to Gary Wirdnam "World Hang Gliding Team" and sucked all his info from him.

As said in a previous post let's see how many people want help. It's sometimes harder to try and find pilots who actually want help than a coach who is offering it.

I still think the way we've done it for years is OK. Turn up on the hills we are flying walk up to us and say can you help me or offer some advice, can you keep an eye on me, will you put the radio on and give me advice in the air...I've done all of the above the last time of Sunday with Claire on Cross Fell. I got her off when she probably wouldn't have bothered and she got something out of the day.

It's very enjoyable helping people I really don't think we need this to get to officious.

Just my thoughts.

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:33 pm

When I first joined the club there were no coaches active in the club at all. After leaving the school where you were told exactly what to do on every flight, I found myself in what seemed like a black hole. With only having days off midweek it took me ages to meet people and to find someone to go flying with.
.So when the opportunity came up to do the coaching course I jumped at the chance so that I could help new pilots get through a period where they could so easily drop out (how the hell do you get your face on the coaching page)?
I thought the coaching course was great and learnt a hell of a lot .
One of the things that was made very clear, is that a coach is not an instructor and should only be there to help make what can be a difficult transition from school student to fully fledged club pilot.
So in my opinion, I might be wrong things could have changed, I think that coach's should limit limit themselves to giving advice on sites and local conditions etc.
If I came across someone who was flying in a dangerous or ignorant manner or someone who was seriouslly lacking confidence, I would advise them to get more instruction from someone properly qualified and experienced to give it.

As for coaching days In principal they sound great but I think we should ask ourselves if we are crossing the line between coaching and instruction.
Dont get me wrong I will help anyone as much as I can, but it sometimes can still be difficult to find someone to fly with midweek. As for Jim Ive been out with him a couple of times he flys well and im sure he'll be one to watch in the future, and my only advice at the moment would be dont be tempted to fly alone.

Food for thought.

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:34 pm

When I first joined the club there were no coaches active in the club at all. After leaving the school where you were told exactly what to do on every flight, I found myself in what seemed like a black hole. With only having days off midweek it took me ages to meet people and to find someone to go flying with.
.So when the opportunity came up to do the coaching course I jumped at the chance so that I could help new pilots get through a period where they could so easily drop out (how the hell do you get your face on the coaching page)?
I thought the coaching course was great and learnt a hell of a lot .
One of the things that was made very clear, is that a coach is not an instructor and should only be there to help make what can be a difficult transition from school student to fully fledged club pilot.
So in my opinion, I might be wrong things could have changed, I think that coach's should limit limit themselves to giving advice on sites and local conditions etc.
If I came across someone who was flying in a dangerous or ignorant manner or someone who was seriouslly lacking confidence, I would advise them to get more instruction from someone properly qualified and experienced to give it.

As for coaching days In principal they sound great but I think we should ask ourselves if we are crossing the line between coaching and instruction.
Dont get me wrong I will help anyone as much as I can, but it sometimes can still be difficult to find someone to fly with midweek. As for Jim Ive been out with him a couple of times he flys well and im sure he'll be one to watch in the future, and my only advice at the moment would be dont be tempted to fly alone.

Food for thought.

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:09 pm

Why is it still posting twice Ive got a new computer

AlastairW · Post by **AlastairW** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:26 pm

The computer recognises pearls of wisdom Bill, and therefore puts it up twice just to make sure everyone gets the message!!!!

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:07 pm

Claire on Cross Fell. I got her off when she probably wouldn't have bothered and she got something out of the day.

Aye, I bet she did, she's a lucky lass.

Paul did you know about this?

I wasn't aware of the advice given to coaches just giving local site and conditions info, fair enough.

Gary is the type of bloke to make things happen he doesn't wait to be held by the hand

I'm not really wanting to beld by the hand, not by you anyway John, no offence.

I'm more the other end of the scale - could do with some reins on at times!

I've heard about accidents happening here and there and I would rather not be one of those statistics.
and

It's sometimes harder to try and find pilots who actually want help than a coach who is offering it.

Just look back through some posts on the forum, its there to see, if you look.

fantastic idea ian, me and claire will be up for that. its about time nhpc put some effort into the coaching side of the club. after all we must have more coaches than most clubs but nowt never seems to happen

Cheers Bill for showing me the ropes on Cookies and Horden, not to mention advice on Marske and Crimdon too, appreciated.
I'm off to stick my head in the sand again, rest assured Bill I'll not be tempted to fly alone, I just need to recruit more firefighters with the same time off as me

Post by **colin keightley** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:29 pm

Why havnt I had any coaches knocking on my door to take me flying.

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:30 pm

Dangerous Dave runs some good coaching days, or so I am told. In recent years it is something that our club has not offered. However the club does offer a great deal more. He also has an area of the countyside that has a lot of sites very close together, making the task a great deal easier.
One problem is that when people organise events, people who had expressed an interest drop out quicker than the leaves of Autumn. The last lecture I attended had an initial interest level of over 20 people. The person doing the lecture put a lot of time into preparing a powerpoint display, gave up his evening and opened his home to the crowd he thought would be there. On the night only three turned up!
Not an excuse not to run an event I know, but people do become demoralised, even the lure of free beer at the BBQ (one of your favourite topics Jim) saw diminishing numbers over the three years it ran.
I have organised the Club Team Comp this year, which was aimed at getting new pilots flying with more experienced ones in safe conditions with very simple tasks. I appreciate you are not involved this year, but the intention is to continue next year. If you look at the enthusiasm for this comp it is somewhat reflective of my comments above, some teams can't be bothered to name themselves, some pilots won't register flights. These pilots volunteered to take part.
I am also running talk ins for new pilots, actually anyone, prior to the club meetings, these will form part of the necessary lectures for the Pilot exam and include mock exams. Can't wait to see how many people turn out to that one!
I have no doubt we will discuss coaching at some point in the near future. You mention the number of club coaches, something you may not realise is, that most of these coaches have very little experience themselves in number of years flying. (probably 5 years is a reasonable guess as an average, there are of course a few 'green backs')
We are a growing and improving club, things will get better, they have over the last few years, it won't stop now. Be patient, but keep giving us a nudge, you never know there maybe something you can offer!

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