Attention November Meeting

Post by **colin keightley** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:11 pm

I propose that in light of recent events we postpone the club auction in order to address the now pressing matter of safety.

I would like to address usual club business as always but then hold shall we say a Safety Forum afterwards.

What are everyone's thoughts on this.

Sad Northerner · Post by **Sad Northerner** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:24 pm

Couldn't agree more Colin. I think as a club our primary focus has to be on safety; the auction can wait.

I'm going to try my best to get there and feel that a show of hands from other club members (by posting there support here and arriving on the night) is a necessary step if the club is going to take a systemic approach to this issue; it is after all applicable to all of us.

Ali

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:03 am

There will always be accidents some learn from them.. some never will ! its as simple as that.

Our club auction is a great event and should go ahead.

Graeme Gilroy · Post by **Graeme Gilroy** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:24 am

cant make it sorry I'm lates.

Graeme

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:36 am

for me I think the auction should still go ahead as for me the accidents seem so much in my mind for one reason.

from June to September there was virtually no flying come September, soon as lots of flying takes place there is always lots of accidents from years gone by and observation.

we all know how to fly more safely yet some of the pilots were generally very safe cautious pilots.

one thing about the club auction it normally costs me over 300 after free donations and train tickets

Trevor Robinson · Post by **Trevor Robinson** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:02 am

Safety is important but so is learning from events. Do we at the moment know the facts well enough to discuss probable causes and specific prevention. Recent accidents are now subject to formal investigation and speculation may not be helpful. Discussion on safe flying, yes, but lets keep the auction

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:06 am

I don't want to undermine the safety issues here but I do think the auction should go ahead. as Ronnie said you will always have accidents.

Its unfortunate that there has been three accidents in a short time and yes they should be learned from.

I think we need a careful considered response and should avoid a knee jerk reaction .
we should let the relevant clubs investigate and respond first
I understand from a previous post that Ed Cleasby is going to do something about safety we should see what he is going to come up with first as two of the accidents did happen on his patch and he is more likely to have the correct facts
but in my opinion the auction is written in stone for the November meeting and should go ahead

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:29 am

By not having an open forum such as the club meeting for discussing safe flying people are burying their heads in the sand, or rock as Richard found out!
There are members of our club that were very lucky to escape without injury on Saturday and Sunday. As a club we should be responsible for bringing this to their attention.
How will we feel as a responsible club if the following week they repeat their action with a different result.....they may well do, but at least we will have tried.
To say some people learn and others do not is a totally irresponsible attitude. Some people just need a little more help to learn.

Some of the comments above really strike the chord of,,,, oh fcuk them, let them have an accident,,,I just want a laugh at the club auction.

Just an opinion, sometimes good to have a rant!

Welcome to the Chairmans seat Colin, you'll be looking forward to all the support you get from now on no doubt!

RonDon · Post by **RonDon** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:35 am

All flying is dangerous. I think the auction should go ahead.
When Ed Cleaby pulls this safety seminar to gether which I
understand other speakers will be invited to speck on safety
Which will help to focus are minds. Or the other option,is we put it at the top of the list for the December meeting.

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:47 am

All flying is dangerous. I think the auction should go ahead.
When Ed Cleaby pulls this safety seminar to gether which I
understand other speakers will be invited to speck on safety

Safety is important but so is learning from events. Do we at the moment know the facts well enough to discuss probable causes and specific prevention. Recent accidents are now subject to formal investigation and speculation may not be helpful. Discussion on safe flying, yes, but lets keep the auction

my thoughts exactly

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:15 am

at the lakes charity classic I witnessed 3 so what about that, also none of the accidents lately have been novice pilots and I think we are getting hysterical.

complacency is the route course and it wont happen to me as I am better than that, well the fact it your not if you choose to make bad decisions.

I think the open forum of questions and answers is good but I do look at the pg. forum a lot and the same thing is always brought up, better documentations etc and reporting.

I put a post not long ago about I did not think 5 reserve throws was very good in a British open on one day and I was shot down for saying it.

what does that tell you people don't want to know or care as it does not happen they were just fancying throwing there reserves over trees to see what it was like.

If you think that it will really make a difference then think again as it will not, as we are human and know better and until you have personally experienced as serious accident you are unlikely to appreciate it.

also how many will turn up for a exclusive safety meeting? as its hard enough to get members there to start with.

this would be better as a structured meeting with videos of incidents and accidents to highlight where things may and have gone wrong.

take the hangliding accident not one comment from the most experienced hg pilot in the club and country, yet even as a novice I could see he was not level straight away and sure maybe have been lots of good learning points of this video.

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:25 am

The club can / should discuss its ongoing safety culture and standards in depth anytime at any meeting.

Even on this site there is a debate forum dedicated to the subject that everyone can contribute to not just at meetings.

It would be good to know what the aims and objectives of a safety discussion would be. In terms of club safety standards what would be the intended outcome of this discussion.

What would we do differently in future to now?

Post by **chrisfozz** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:43 am

I’m really surprised by some of the comments in this thread. I may have got the wrong end of the stick but it sounds like some people are suggesting that accidents (or people making mistakes and getting hurt) are inevitable. In my opinion, we have a duty to share what we know about these incidents so we can all manage the risks and dangers of flying more effectively. And we should do it as soon as possible, i.e. the next meeting.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:02 pm

at every meeting this is what we do go through any recent incidents and accidents then, never thinking of brushing under the carpet.

I was one who flew to robin hoods bay and I have witnesses say do not continue as it is out of wind. I ended up following at a very different track as I was aware of the potential rotor etc. this all could be done on see you showing peoples flights etc and reasons and questions but would need some time to do it.

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:42 pm

As a club we can't discuss much at the moment because we don't know all the facts of what happened and why, The BHPA will hopefully receive all the information needed from all concerned then the club can have a more in depth discussion.

The hanggliding accident Gary, I can't comment on what happened I was not there.. but in the video it looked like his left wing was down a bit and just behind the ridge on take off. After take off the right wing was in good lift while the left wing was not ! hence the dramatic turn to the left and the rest was history !

I don't know the wind direction or strength (huge factor) or how current the pilot was but I do know this pilot is very good and it looked like it was fine margins for this accident to occur, shit happens.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:42 pm

When we had accidents flying hang gliders the safety officer would follow up and file an accident report which would then be forwarded onto the BHGA as it was then it should be the same now.

Hence

In my opinion, we have a duty to share what we know about these incidents so we can all manage the risks and dangers of flying more effectively

Safety is paramount and as Chris has pointed out we need to learn why accidents happen. When was the last time our club submitted such a document to the BHPA?

Maybe a separate day should be used to have a safety meeting maybe the following Wednesday after the auction to give people time to gather facts or make a list about safety related issues.

JW

Post by **colin keightley** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:54 pm

Although recent accidents have played a roll in my suggestions, a large part is because of some of the decision making that has been going on lately in less than ideal conditions. I am sure I am not the only one who has misgivings about the margin of safety within the club at the moment and we have a duty as a club to address any safety concerns.

Nforster · Post by **Nforster** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:47 pm

why not have a safety part of the forum, with links to the bhpa investigations and debates there? i would love to come to meetings but im up in berwick and the forum would an easier way to pass on info. you could even video the safety talks and add them here for members who cant get to meetings

in my line of work (a doctor) we always examine safety issues and near misses , its a great way of learning.

thanks,
neil

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:51 pm

Quite agree Colin.
Ron Freeman, the information upon which the BHPA will form a decision regarding Richards accident came from me, so in that respect, we, I, know more than anybody.
The close calls our club members have experienced can be seen on video footage and by analysing the track logs.
If you read Gary's post instead of jumping in you would know that the wind speed on the day of the hang gliding accident was 29mph.

Putting it in it's simplest form, if this type of flying continues someone will die!
We need it to be made quite clear to newer pilots who may presume that it's ok to fly in these conditions that it isn't. New pilots that are keen and enthusiastic will take a lead from the more experienced pilots in the club, that's human nature, survival instinct, if you're not sure you look to someone who has more experience in your eyes.
There is no need in such a meeting to analyse the accidents in great depth, just to raise awareness, help people understand the limitations of our flying craft and give them the confidence to make their own decisions and not be influenced by others activities.

Post by **colin keightley** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:09 pm

I think one area of training in paragliding that is lacking is Human Performance. In most other forms of aviation this is part of the training sylabus.

NPPL Sylabus wrote:BASIC PSYCHOLOGY
The information process
-concepts of sensation
-cognitive perception
-expectancy
-anticipation
-habits

The central decision channel
-mental workload, limitations
-information sources
-stimuli and attention
-verbal communication
-memory and its limitations
-causes of misinterpretation

Stress
-causes and effects
-concepts of arousal
-effects on performance
-identifying and reducing stress

Judgement and decision making
-concepts of pilots' judgement
-psychological attitudes
-behavioural aspects
-risk assessment
-development of situational awareness

I think the last part of that is very important and we should maybe have someone talk about that.

Gordon C · Post by **Gordon C** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:19 pm

do both a prompt or early start should allows us time to hear the eyewitness account, as Brian says to raise awareness , the analyse can be at the next meeting

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:09 pm

Learning from others mistakes is the only way to make flying safer. EVERY incident should be documented, in anal detail and publicly available.

Blown back in high wind.
Dragged after poor launch.
Pulling your reserve.
Landing in a tree.
Landing down wind.
Landing in water!
Got caught out without a B plan.
Stalled
Span
etc etc etc
Or even just shat yourself.

All the above should be documented so others can learn. There should be no question about that.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:48 pm

i must say steves AKA fingers has a good point there as you never stop learning in this sport and from a incident or accident then you cant get better than that.

I know we are all big boys but I am still hungry for information and ways of keeping me safer as I would like to think in 30 years time I am still here and flying

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:30 pm

brian day wrote:Quite agree Colin.
Ron Freeman, the information upon which the BHPA will form a decision regarding Richards accident came from me, so in that respect, we, I, know more than anybody.
The close calls our club members have experienced can be seen on video footage and by analysing the track logs.
If you read Gary's post instead of jumping in you would know that the wind speed on the day of the hang gliding accident was 29mph.

Brian, Iv'e no doubt the BHPA will get an account from Richard as well before we see an incident report, It would be nice to hear Richards account As for jumping in NO ! Gary brought this incident to my attention and I gave my 10p worth from a video clip also I can't see anywhere in Garys post that he mentions 29mph ?

Post by **colin keightley** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:50 pm

Ron 29mph this thread http://www.nhpc.org.uk/nhpc/viewtopic.php?t=9590

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:59 pm

Hi Colin, this thread does not say it was the same day as the hg accident..
as for 29mph this wind speed is ok for hanggliders

I have also been saying at club meeting that paragliders are flying in winds far too strong and just because the performance of our wings have got better it does not mean you can fly in stronger winds.

Post by **colin keightley** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:10 pm

The incident Gary refers to in that post was Saturday and a paraglider

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:29 pm

Thank you Colin

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:51 am

So then are we having the auction or not ????

as for the next meeting obviously the incidents of last weekend have to be mentioned.
Safety is the most important of issues but we run the risk of going round in circles with this discussion.
I thing we should all address our thoughts to our safety officer then give him time to analyze the data and come up with a structured safety presentation.

do I tell wor lass to get her finger out and get the Christmas cake iced
or do I give it to the dog

Chris L · Post by **Chris L** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:06 am

I think a debate on safety is a very good idea for a meeting particularly while it is fresh in everyones minds
The auction can always be postponed to another meeting but safety should be priority and particularly to stop pilots repeating the mistakes others have made on a particular site
BHPA reports as published in Skywings do not in my opinion give enough detail of why the accident ocurred so it is good to hear from those who were there on the day areas that should have been avoided or different options to fly more safely
People maybe need to have a different mindset which such a debate may highlight (eg I think pilots often think flying the coast is a safe option but from my experiences and from recent accidents it can be more dangerous than flying XC in the mountains) Will try to get along if you go ahead with this

NHPC Private and Public Forum

Attention November Meeting

Attention November Meeting

Accidents

Nov

accidents?

Next meeting

Hg incident

thank you