Sunday's flying at XFell,,,,,,,,,What did you learn?

[brian day]

I was asked by a pilot who has been flying a lot longer than me, who I respect for his flying and judgements,
' Do you think we push things further than we used to?'

I knew immediately what he meant, which made me reflect on the day, my flying and the flying of others around me.
I have to say, I saw some piloting decisions that made me cringe. Today, people 'got away with it' which is good, but did they take anything from the day?
The fact that, yes, it probably did take that comment, to make me take something from the day, is hick has nspired me to write something in the hope that everyone that flew yesterday might reflect on their flying and learn something from the day and maybe not make me cringe so much next time we fly together.

So just to help, here's a few questions for starters that might make you think.

Did you get what you wanted from the flight?
Why did you take off, were you happy, or was it because others took off?
Did you have a good knowledge of what the weather was supposed to do later in the day?
Do you know what your ground speed was, into wind and down wind?
Did you find yourself wondering, what am I going to do now?
Was your take off in a sensible place and was it good?
Was your landing good, was it in a safe place, what would have happened if things had gone wrong?
What will you do next time to make your flight better?

My honest answer to the question posed to me was,,,,,,
' mmmm, maybe you're right, I think the desperation goggles were on, I have flown in worse,,,,but that doesn't make it right.'
I did base my flying on previous experience on the site and flew safely apart from a wing upside down on landing, which caused some excitement, but I knew I had picked my landing area carefully because I was aware of the wind speed.

Mad March Hares???

[gary stenhouse]

good post indeed and unfortunately I left the radio in the car as I would of warned people that there was too much south in it.

I did have a fairly stress free flight though was not overly happy as when off to the south is always a tricky and more turbulent air.

however up until I went out the back near the café my ground speed was not to bad, however once out the back it was averaging 75 at trim.
this was what my thermal drift was given 35kph so plus trim 39 about right.
I was lucky the wind slowed down as I got lower in the valley but I was was very aware but as with brian I seen things on high cap that could of been very dangerous and showed that it would be a good idea for a talk on rotor where the lift band will be.

I seen one pilot start over to Man at edge and fly back onto the west face of cross fell in a southerly, could of ended ver badly.

next meeting a chat on safety

[Lloyd]

Were we desperate to fly or just desperate. I have be flying paragliders for over 20 years and have always aired on the side of caution. With a strong wind (and forecast to be come stronger) I decided to to stay out in front of the hill knowing that the terrain at Cross Fell has a lot of small hills and valleys making it turbulent low down if your are in the wrong place. Plus the wind was off to the south just to add a little more complication. With all this information my flight (take-off and landing) was uneventful but I see and hear some pilots had interesting flights.
End of the day no one was injured and we have all learnt something.

On a lighter note John Miller AKA Podman (Mad Dog) had a good flight.

[ron freeman]

Good write up Brian and going off the write ups sounds like we were lucky nobody was badly hurt..

Pilots up and down the country are flying in winds far too strong and its only a matter of time before there is a bad accident.
Paragliders do have more speed, more precise handling and much improved stability but its being used for all the wrong reasons.

The 'More wind much more turbulance' and we all know paragliders hate turbulence.. Fact !

When you see someone getting there wing out and the wind is strong go over and ask them why they are going to fly in these conditions and hopefully you may change their decision not to take off & fly another day.

[John Wallis]

Great post Brian it's good to make people think!

I got to Hartside about 13.00 after a late night celebrating (First excuse)
Drove straight to the Radar Mast to find the wind well South not strong but top end at least for me, there was no chance of getting off from there.

Drove down to where they've felled the trees ready to walk up to the corner of the lower scar but again wind well south even for the corner of the bowl. Continued to Kirkland and watched for a while as people were taking off. The obvious choice could be seen get a little height then the old dash for Man at Edge. That's fair enough. You could see how far the wind was off High Cap because as soon as the glider's turned south they were either stuck or moving very slow. The south side of High Cap is a killer in that direction seen it and done it.

The guys on Man at Edge 5 to 6 gliders seemed to be doing ok with the odd one going for a glide towards the cafe (Nice one and enjoyable)

It didn't look appealing enough to carry up from Kirkland (Excuse 2)

Respect to those that flew but for me it looked too far off maybe with a touch of east with height? A touch too windy and a frigging big walk to take off.

Went for a nice walk instead and of course caressed my glider telling it there would be other times;)

[chrisfozz]

It might be worth having a butchers at the picture below before reading the rest of this.

I’ve pondered over two aspects of my flight yesterday, the transition from Man At Edge to Melmerby High Scar and the landing; in that order.
I don’t usually go direct from Man At Edge to Melmerby High Scar in strong conditions unless I have enough height to clear any rota from Cunns Fell. Climbs from Man At Edge were petering out yesterday around 200m ato so this wasn’t an option. After a couple of false starts I decided to go for Megs Cairn first, then MHS.

The wind was from the south, quite strong at times and as we know this means rota extends exponentially. If you know your way around an OS map it should be relatively easy to identify areas where there is likely to be rota on the map. It looks to me like I flew through most of them. So, this wasn’t my first choice but I can say I had enough height to avoid the obvious areas of rota and was confident I could soar the hill in front Megs Cairn and make enough height to clear the rota from Cuns Fell. On reflection, although it wasn’t a route I would normally take, I think I managed the conditions on the day ok and given similar (southerly) conditions I would take the same route again. In lighter non thermic SW conditions I like to take the back passage up the gullies, working the ridges behind take off. If its strong SW I’ll go round the front or wait for a climb.

Second issue landing or to be more precise getting the wing on the ground and under control. In contrast to previous gliders I’ve owned the Carrera is much harder to get down once I’ve landed. The manual says –
“In strong winds, turn to face your wing as soon as your feet touch the ground. Immediately stall the glider as rapidly as possible with the brakes or rear risers. Be prepared to run towards your wing.”
This is what I’ve done all the time only this one just doesn’t want to come down and when it does it usually goes off to one side which makes it even more awkward. Perhaps I need to run faster but yesterday I fell over and resorted to plan b which is to haul in one brake as fast as pos. To be fair I only got dragged about 50m or so.

In relation to the original question, “are we pushing it more than we used to?” In my opinion yes we are but I don’t think that means we are taking greater risks we just need to be aware of how things are changing and deal with it appropriately. Good post Brian, critical thinking and informed debate can only help us understand and deal with the risks involved in paragliding.

[gary stenhouse]

I think if you have seeyou you can download my flight fron NXL and you will see what happened to the wind past the café.

while thermaling next to the café I could see a fire over the back of the café and the smoke was definitely blowing southerly and going 90 degrees to the road.
so as I approached the back ridge I got another week thermal and made the decision to go over the back as being southerly what I though would put the ridge line to my left or north to be lifting.

however I believe I met converging wind the south wind meeting a wsw and causing a huge venture effect as from having no faster glide of 63-64 I suddenly had a ground speed of 75-80kph. this been the case I stayed in the middle of the 2 hills and followed th valley and hoping as I got lower the wind would also. my glide however was pretty close to the terrain so had good ground clearance. however the valley was starting end and buildings and trees and possible rotor was ahead so I picked a nice big area of soft ground with no walls down wind etc. and had a nice landing however if the wind had stayed so strong it would have been quite a different story.

I must say I don't like flying in such windy conditions but I do think that sometimes getting caught out can keep you sharp and focused making sure you made good decisions. remember you can land going backwards but always avoid walls aat all cost but hedges can be your savior but your wing may get trashed but it will kill your wing

[Gordon C]

I would just like to add my thanks to Brain for the post and to the wright up's that followed, a good debrief can be invaluable as a learning tool, reading the wright up's has added to my days flying, cheers.
glad to say I stayed around high cap, had a reasonable hour's flight until a bit air sickness and the forecast that the wind would begin to pick up by 15:00 on my mind, I landed next to Gary's van,

[AlastairW]

I have read these posts and was not certain whether to contribute or not, as I was on cross fell merely as a spectator, and have not flown now for four years.

But I assessed the wind speed as 18 mph, and asked the guy with the wind meter what speed it was, and he said 18..... So I have not lost it!

And also I can give a more objective view without the burning desire to get into the air.

Would I have flown? Probably yes.

Should I have flown? Debatable.

I saw Brian flying, and it was clear the wind was way of to the south, almost no penetration and no lift on the into wind leg, and then a fast down wind leg. Absolutely no criticism of Brian, who is a very experienced pilot, but it was indicative of the conditions.

The wind did drop slightly, and shifted more west, but it was typical cross fell with a lull, and then picking up to over 20 mph. People on the hill were talking of the wind being East of South, which is not a direction to fly in on cross fell.

Pilots who did get off went to man at edge, a southerly ridge, and the experienced pilots then went XC from there, but the possibility for problems was great. And there were a number of new members who were left on the hill, seeing people flying and looking to follow them.

People had commented on another pilot flying into the gully and having major tucks.

To sum up, the conditions were not great, and there was potential for a major incident.

As many of you will know, I speak from experience, having had a ride in a helicopter from cross fell.

Don't push the envelope guys, someday it will come back and bite you. I know that only to well.

Far better to go home and grumble about not having flown, than end up in hospital or worse.

And hats of to Brian for having started this thread!