new year getting things started

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:57 am

It was suggested at a recent meeting that the club trophies / competition system needs modernising.
I agree that something could be done to make it more interesting, fairer and achievable to all members.
I don’t want to be-little the achievements of those who have won the silverware in the past but it does often happen that a couple of good flights or even sometimes one flight on a good day and you can walk off with an arm full of trophies
We have hang-gliding trophies with a lot of history behind them but hardly anyone flying hangliders last year entries for xc had to be coaxed out its possible that in the near future you could win all the hang-gliding trophies just by owning a hang g-glide.r Ronny is trying his best to encourage us to become bi-wingal with his half price training offer but I fear he is fighting a loosing battle .
So what should we do?
The easiest thing would be to do nowt but I fear that would probably be the worst thing as these trophies in memory of past members with all that history attached would just fade into obscurity.
Another option would be to retire them to stick them in a cupboard somewhere and say there are no more hang-gliders flying so we no longer have hang-glider trophies.
This isn’t really a serious option.
One more serious suggestion was to make the hang-gliding only trophies available to all like the weekender which I believe started out as a hang-gliding only trophy and change the criteria for winning them for example make them site specific like the cross fell trophy and use them to encourage us all to fly some of our underused fantastic sites in the cheviots .
The issue seems to be splitting into two questions:
Firstly what to do with the hg trophies?
Secondly can we make all the trophies more achievable by everyonel and avoid wherever possible the situation where one flight wins all?
Who should decide?
I believe it is a matter for all members to decide but as far as the hg trophies and the history surrounding them goes it has to be a matter for want of a better word the club elders, thoses who have been around a while’ you know who you are Ronnie freeman, john Wallis, john miller, etc etc
So what happens now?
It would be great to see some serious debate followed by a small number of proposals that could be voted on.
Its the 1st Jan 2013 the start of a new year so let’s start it in positive mood and get something done.

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:23 am

Well, I see there has been the usual responce to the call for help and suggestions from the Chairman!!!!!

How about a more radical approach,,,,,,,bin all the trophies and don't bother!!!!!

I wonder if Bill had said that there might have been more vocalism?

Ok, that's not really an option, so here's a couple of ideas to try and get people started.

1.Overall Champ, 6 flights Open Distance, I think we need to keep that one.
2.Longest flight from a Northumberland site.
3.OLC, giving people the oportunity to try out and returns, turn point and triangle flights. (Declared?)
4.Fly Northumberland,,,,,,here's a new one,,,,, For every site in Northumberland have a set of 30 downloadable waypoints in front of the hill, scoring 1 point fro every point flown to plus 1 point per km over the back open distance. One flight per hill to be flown continuosly on one day, max score 60 points per hill (30points out front 30km over the back) Minimum 5 hills, maximum 10 hills (have we got that many?)
5. Team comp, scoring and format open to ideas.
Northumberland combined, 6 flights from different Northumberland hills OLC scoring.

A flight is only eligable for one trophy score???? hard one that.

Got loads more ideas, but there's a starter.
Really wouldn't like to comment on the Hangy trophies I don't think I'm qualified to make a judgement. It would be nice to hear something sensible from the hangy pilots.

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:47 am

good start brian I agree the overall champ should stay as it is along with cross fell gary porter and grahm thirlwell
team comp was great when you done it but it needs someone with loads of enthusiasm to run it as would a points scoring comp are you volunteering

I like thr idea of one flight for one trophy but how would that work

what would be the highest olc score you could get on east hill

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:30 pm

Whatever is decided I think it needs to be kept as simple as possible or it won't work.

Being an ex HG Pilot this is what I would propose. Scrap the winter XC league for HG (No interest or if there is it's a blast up the cliffs and back) Not hard and not worth anything.

The Phil Trotter Trophy to be used for PG and maybe for the best OLC flight or top 6 OLC flights. Using the OLC might encourage pilots to fly their own task on any hill. Once they upload their flight and check it out using the OLC filter it might encourage their flying.

The HG club comp shield which used to be fiercely contested no longer has enough pilots to fight over it. I would suggest the best XC flight done on a hang glider to recieve it, if no flights are done it can be kept for the following year. If hang gliding dies out altogether have another look at where it might fit into paragliding or bin it.

Looking at the 2012 XC league there were only 9 entrants and only 6 of them worth being there.

Of course the majority of the membership now might not be interested in competition and would rather just enjoy flying for what it is and there's nowt wrong with that. However as your hours build you might get a little bored with soaring the ridge and want something more and that's where little tasks set on the day can become very enjoyable, it can even make the greyest of days exciting

JW

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:10 pm

Well, I managed 12.2 OLC from East Hill last year but I'm sure I could better that!

Who was elected as Comps Secretary at the AGM? They should be taking this on, not Bill, or Bill asking me to volunteer.

As you've all seen before I have a 'grab the situation by the testicles and drag it into the future' attitude to doing things, a way of managing this club that the members were not ready for. That's why everyone, bar a few, stood back and let things crash and burn or dug the knife in and twisted. But, ha, my 'chimp' is under control, locked away, (Brailsford,,, ).

Yes, I'll do it Bill, if that's what people want, but my flights will not be included in the results to avoid any conflicts of interest.

The flight per comp would be up to the pilot to submit the flight for the comp as they declare the flight on the league table.

At least John Wallis has had the balls to stand up and say something on behalf of the Hangies,,,,,,,,come on,,,,,,,,there's more than one hangie,,,,,,or ex-hangie out there.

Competition has been a great part of my life, it's great and encourages people to perform, but has to be organised in a safe, friendly environment that encourages involvement at all levels, especially in this sport.
Encourage improvement and reward it within everyone's ability...

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:34 pm

How's about a year 1,2 pilot trophy
Year 3-5 trophy
All comers trophy
Vets,,,,,,sorry,,,,Masters, or Sky Gods trophy

That might get more people involved

Come on,,,,,,where are you all??? You've got to be fed up with this weather,,,,,,let's have some ideas!!!!

Support your club
Support your chairman

Post by **chrisfozz** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:43 pm

I’d like to see some of our awards changed to support two objectives
• flying in the cheviots
• encouraging those who don’t usually fly XC to have a go.
Hows about an award for best 5 flights from any pilot who’s not yet managed 10k (or some other distance that folks may think is appropriate) - if they make 10k + during the current year they still get the prize but move up next year. This could be an award for Cheviot only flights or flights from a bigger area.

Some people have already used
http://fozz.dyndns-ip.com/MyTrack/Cheviot/upload.php
it wouldn’t be difficult to add another page to give best 5 flights from the current year

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:01 pm

With all this enthusiastic response it could be a good time to get something on to the constitution,,,,, all Northumbrian pilots have to fly in baby doll nighties,,,,,,,which is nothing new for some!

Great idea Chris,,,,,,my idea of year 1-3 pilots may be a bit restrictive, especially if there's only 1,,,,,, how about 10 newest pilots?

Post by **colin keightley** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:25 pm

How about one for best SAT and/or quickest most stable stall recovery

Post by **colin keightley** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:29 pm

Only joking but I will be focusing on acro this year and then if the fancy takes me I'll leave the hill

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:50 pm

http://swimkitten.com/babydoll-nightie- ... t-babydoll

It,ll never catch on

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:55 pm

Hi Bill, I've just read your post and the HG trophies don't need to go anywhere, their history will be secure and always remembered wether current or not.

This year I do think there will be more HG XC flights than previous.

I do think some of the HG & PG awards could involve the Cheviots a bit more with out & returns and triangles.

Going off the competition interest within the club at the moment we need to keep all the different awards as simple as possible to get the members taking part.

Back off to bed now feeling pretty sick (flu)

Graeme Gilroy · Post by **Graeme Gilroy** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:48 pm

Hi all,

Like the sound of chris's suggestion as its light hearted and ye could end up with a trophy for a glorified flop over the back !
Brian's suggestion of baby doll night wear is prob an indicator to his after hours antics (thought this a family site ?) but I do have an elvis onsie that would look fine over east hill aha ha !
I just think the full on comp scene is a bit to deep for me , not sure if others feel the same ?

Cheers

Graeme

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:45 pm

Hi

I've only recently joined NHPC and met most of you at the auction. I'm on the brink of passing my CP and will soon be hoping to get to know you all much better and joining in your days out ( I got a red steamer for xams off santa)

However everyone else in the club seems to be experienced pilots and its quite a daunting prospect for me thinking about my first few days mixing it with you guys. For a little extra encouragement is it an idea to have a trophy for the most improved newcomer or something similar? If its a reaslistic suggestion would certainly giveme something else to go for.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:22 pm

Hi Graeme check out the Graeme Thirlwell Trophy in this link
http://www.nhpc.org.uk/cups.php

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:03 pm

to the two graeme's I woulsd say that it my opinion there is a big diference between flying in comps and competing for club trophys
If we get it right all you should have to do to compete for the trophys is make track logds of your flights then load them onto tinternet and that should be it
we need to keep it simple and keep it fun
encourage all to take part
encourage more flying in cheviots

as for making tracklogs and downloading them I am hoping to organise some sort of tutorial at a meeting soon if we can get everyone storing all there flights then everyone is taking part every time they fly

Post by **colin keightley** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:34 am

Can I just say you don't need any fancy GPS as you can just use an iPhone or similar for our website Nd I can show you how

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:14 am

Colin can you download a flight log from an iPhone or were you just using that as a demo

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:34 pm

Hi Colin I've answered my own question there's plenty out there that can give you an ICG file and more.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/livetra ... 21792?mt=8

This one looks promising

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:16 pm

Hi John

My namesake aswell - looks like the idea is already well and truly in place

I hope to keep on learning for many years to come

thanks
Graeme

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:06 pm

One of the best ways to make the most of a day on the hill is to set a task with a like minded group of pilots, always best in a group because other people have different ideas and knowledge of what is achieveable. This gives your flying an aim.
The club trophies and the ideas for comps that I have suggested are no more than this concept, with the tasks already set, which should take the risk element away from task setting.
If we get things right, pilots should be completing tasks at their own level and having their flights placed alongside other people of similar experience.
Hopefully, setting tasks within the Cheviots will encourage more flights from different sites in our own area. The Cheviots are rarely flown, however, if we get the hang of these hills, they offer up the potential for some record breaking flights. (It's just getting out of them that's the problem, but the more we fly, the more we learn.)
Flying XC is only a very small branch of our sport, as Colin says,,,,what about acro challenges?????? Well, not for me, but why not?
For many it takes years to take the step to XC flying, some may never bother, for others the journey to xc flying is quite quick, but it doesn't make anyone a better or worse pilot, one more able to to take part in club challenges than another.
The idea is to make a challenge achieveable by all pilots, if the results are close, with lots of participants then the challenge has been a success. If one person wins everything, challenged by one or two others, the challenge has been a failure. This is the reason we need to make some changes.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:20 am

well after a few days away and only mobile internet I have not posted

my thoughts on xc should be the same point system as the nxl 3 turn point and triangles and out and returns.

also I think that most of the scoring should be based on Northumbria sites only, though to be fair I don't think this will work as there is not enough members flying xc in the cheviots.

I think xc flying should not be pushed on people as I think it is a personal choice and something you do if you feel ready for it.

however I think logging your flights is a great way to monitor your progress for flight duration height gains distance etc.

I will try and put a few more thoughts but I think it is more important to get out there and just fly rather than all about distance.

Sad Northerner · Post by **Sad Northerner** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:44 pm

A tricky one eh?

To change the perimeters of the trophies is to hamper with the history of the club....... this would be confusing for anyone winning the trophies to determine whether Rutherford, Wallis or Gill won the said trophy prior to the rule change or after it.

My attitude would be to retire some of the trophies and design new ones with new perimeters from scratch.

I agree with Fozz; the trophies should be there mainly as a means of rewarding pilots of every level and as a means of encouraging development. Whereas I agree there should be a bias towards flights done in Cheviots to make this the sole area that trophies can be won would be a mistake because, ultimately, we want to encourage developing pilots to go to the 'most suitable' site..... this is often not the Cheviots.

Also, we should not forget who we are and not take ourselves too seriously.
After all the trophies often only reflect those of us who happened to get out on the best days, can afford the fuel or don't have full time work or kids etc etc..,,,so lets take em with a pinch.
Despite this a few years back an attitude of 'dog eat dog' crippled the coherency of the club (this really racked me off) and we subsequently did not gaggle fly or help each other whilst on XCs. The main reason for this?....trophy grabbing and measuring a pilot purely by his league position.
This has to stop...

In conclusion. I don't know maybe we should just bin em all...so that we can develop a co-operative flying attitude rather than a competitive one.

Ali

AngusB · Post by **AngusB** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:49 pm

OLC?

Let's make everyone a winner, like what they do in schools these days...obviously I'm being ironic

As a newish member of the club I think that if the history of these trophies is very important then perhaps more of a deal should be made about them & the reasons they exist other than just once a year at the trophy ceremony...somehow, I don't have the answer.

I know Ali is most likely trying to wind up for a response but I disagree with getting rid of them altogether. I love the thought I could possibly win a trophy with our club & cement my name in it's history but that's not my driving ambition to get out there...I just love flying.

AngusB · Post by **AngusB** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:49 pm

OLC?

Let's make everyone a winner, like what they do in schools these days...obviously I'm being ironic

As a newish member of the club I think that if the history of these trophies is very important then perhaps more of a deal should be made about them & the reasons they exist other than just once a year at the trophy ceremony...somehow, I don't have the answer.

I know Ali is most likely trying to wind up for a response but I disagree with getting rid of them altogether. I love the thought I could possibly win a trophy with our club & cement my name in it's history but that's not my driving ambition to get out there...I just love flying.

Post by **colin keightley** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:45 pm

I think we should have a novelty trophy or booby prize so to say for either the longest walkout or the shortest total on the league maybe name it its the taking part that counts

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:12 pm

I'm struggling to remember what the different trophies are. Could someone just post the list up here to remind me? (i know they're probably listed somewhere else but I don't have time to sift through the site and find them)

My initial feeling is that it would be wrong to just lock them away and forget some of the guys who lost their lives in the formative years of the club. Surely just keep them but make them open to everybody. Or is that duplicating other trophies that are now available?

Whatever they're for why not just have a set of trophies that are open to all whatever type of wing they fly.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:25 pm

http://www.nhpc.org.uk/cups.php

Post by **colin keightley** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:38 pm

I think the emphasis is Dave is that without restrictions/entry requirements for each trophy it makes it possible for one person like mr Guthrie to walk away with the lot. As for trawling through the website just look at the links at the top of the page.

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:23 pm

so that we can develop a co-operative flying attitude rather than a competitive one

Like not changing radio frequency just before take off!!!!
Sorry, just had to make that dig at Mr G who did just that on a very good days flying from the Dales,,,,and I thought he was just ignoring me!!!

This is what I had tried to do in the Team comps and the N54 series. Hopefully a similar challenge format can be reinstated along with a few others.

this would be confusing for anyone winning the trophies to determine whether Rutherford, Wallis or Gill won the said trophy

Wallis????????

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new year getting things started

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Bill Scott

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