Something to replace my lovely Yellow Epsilon, HELP!!!!

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:12 pm

My heads battered looking at kit to replace mine, any suggestions?
In the melting pot at the moment;
Sigma 7 (one second hand for £1000, 80 hours flown half in spain, half at long mynd, 1 professional repair) I'd be middle of weight range.
Artik 2, Top of weight range on a small
Ozone swift
Gin Genie 4, not sure I can justify £1000 for a pod, though I did enjoy flying it, very comfortable.
Do I sit in the middle (Genie), go light weight or go for the pod?
I change my mind every 2 minutes, some sensible advice required!
My weight, now stop laughing and calling me names! 72kg, but that's not on Gary's super scales!

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:22 pm

for me would be with heavy harness being the very top of what ever wing you get, then if you decide to go light you can without changing your glider. i have been on the lower end of a wing a couple of times and did not like it. rather be right on the top and go light weight if need be on light days.

cheers gary

GlennP · Post by **GlennP** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:21 pm

I know it's no consellation Brian but you are looking at a good time. It's a buyers Market at the minute and lots about. Ukairsports doing at Zulu explorer ex demo £1199. Northern sale on 5th dec.

GlennP · Post by **GlennP** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:53 pm

You don't need lightweight brian. You ve got a 4x4!

Skyads and eBay are full of wings. Pg forum is too. It is a bit head spinning though. So much on offer. Wouldn't touch anything that has had a lot of use abroad unless it had a very recent inspection as the uv damage is likely to be higher than a Uk based wing. Then there's the dust. But it's probably never been stored damp which I ve found out is the worst thing for wings. Get something well looked after that has a checkable history. Ukairsports have been very accomodating of all the daft questions I ve asked. They might have a sport 4 at a good price in your size. Good luck my friend!

Misk · Post by **Misk** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:07 pm

If that sigma is Judith Mole's then it's probably a good buy, it looked in good condition the last time I saw it. J's after an Avax so well worth a little haggle.

Would you be tempted by an Avax? I have a good one and am open to offers...........

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:08 pm

go 2-3 or uncerified as there is even bigger bargains.

weight 72
harness 5-8
reserverve 1.4-2.5
consertina bag .5
vario .5
radio .5
water 1-1.5
bag 1.4
wing 4-7
clothing 3-5

it all adds up and even going light weight it is surprising how it all adds up

tricky if you buy a second hand wing for a 1000 and you keep it a year you will still get 600 buy a new wing for 2400 and after 1 year you may get 1200 but if you keep it for all time then new would be for me.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:17 pm

just realised who the chap is who is selling the sigma and i would well trust him. he is a scotish chap who has lived down the long mynd for 20 plus years. he flew my discus down at the mnd when i was down there then i have met him on the bpc rounds as well. he is trust wothy and fairly well of. retired and lives 50-50 in spain and also has a rs3.5 that he was trying to sell. if it was me no brainer now i know who it is. buy it try it and if you dont gell with it sell it on you can not loose out.

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:53 pm

Why change? Whats wrong with the Epsilon? Safe, good performance, you seemed to fly it quite well?

Chris L · Post by **Chris L** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:26 am

Brian..........Absolute bargain for a Sigma 7. Go for it. Fantastic wing. Good performance, works well with a Gin Genie harness. I fly mine a bit above middle of the weight range. Cracking glider. Its got the same feedback as a DHV2-3 but with the safety of a DHV2. Not very dynamic and does very flat turns but just what you need for your next 100k flight. Then with the money you save you can buy another Bobcat for the fast dynamic stuff

Bradleisure · Post by **Bradleisure** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:09 pm

Still got the FreeX to try if your interested (Not sure I want to sell it though).

If your after the best wing out there I'd go for the Avax from Misk....

It all depends what you want from your flying.

AlastairW · Post by **AlastairW** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:30 pm

Sigma 7 for £1000?

Snap his hand off!

After you have had a look at it first.

It clearly is a buyers market at the minute.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:52 pm

Sigma 7 for £1000?

It's probably been wrapped around a bus shelter and repaired

You get what you pay for in this life...........

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:48 pm

Thanks folks, keep the comments comming.
I'm meeting wit Graeme Baird next Thursday afternoon to look at the Sigma 7, he will have to give a good sales patter though.
Ian I think your wing would be brilliant, but I don't have the skill / bottle or whatever it takes to fly one of those things yet. 1 step at a time!

Misk · Post by **Misk** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:33 pm

Can you get a deal on Gary's Artik now he has a new wing? £800 would be a fair price for the green machine?

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:42 pm

It's funny when you step back and have a look at paragliding there are just so many makes and models claiming to be the glider you should buy. Best glide best sink rate best whatever and over the years hang gliding hasn't been much different. No matter what you go for there will be a trade off somewhere along the line. Best glide...it will be stiff....Best handling....it will have nee glide.....etc etc. So really what do you want from your flying that is the ultimate question? I remember speaking to Anto last year (and he's a guy who has been in on the sport since the beginning) He was considering changing his glider to a DHV 1 and I can completely see where he was coming from. He likes light wind, he likes thermals, and doesn't take off when it's windy. Then there's the 1-2 class a little bit more in the way of handling performance (I use the term loosely as paragliders don't have performance in my opinion) but the glider is a fair compromise. Then you have the 2s I've never flown one but I have watched and I have listened and I have read. It appears the 2s are for pilots with knowledge, airtime and dare i say it have done an SIV. I personally don't think the jump from the 1-2 to the 2 is worth the trade off for what you get!!! Then you have the rest of the wings which are for the experts or the up and coming hot pilots. I guess you'll come to the stage in your flying when you are good enough if that's really what you want from the sport, and going back to the original question..What do you want from your flying?

Once you have got that clear in your head you will be in a better position to buy or replace your wing.

Talking to Gary tonight he hit the nail on the head. John Watson is flying a wing that's seven years old and usually flys the pants off all of us, plus he's the club comp champion.....Oh and I think he paid £300 for his wing a few years back.......It makes you think doesn't it.

I'm not an expert on paragliding by any strectch of the imagination I'm sure you'll let me know if this makes sense.

But are we not just a bunch of trend setters/keep up with the Jones/ like new toys/ rather than picking a sensible glider and learning to use it to the maximum.

Your thoughts gentlemen.....At least it's better than picking ****ing flying songs.

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:30 pm

Totally agree John.
Better to fly a 1 or a 1/2 at 100% than a 2 at 30%.
The allure of a fancy new wing will soon lose its luster when it gets a bit naughty.
Why change? A 'lovely espilon' seems the ideal wing?
I was told when you are fully confident doing good wing overs, spirals etc and doing better kms than others on the same cert wing, think about moving up.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:39 am

the old saying flying a glider to 100%

this is easier to say tan do as acro to me would say you are at 100% in tune with a glider. yet i could say between 90 to 95 % of top pilots cant even do a wing over or spiral or sat, so does this mean thay should not be flying the wings they fly.

to fly any wing well you first of all need to be happy maybe a little nervous but never scared all the time. you should be happy to fly the wing in all the conditions you were happy to do so before you traded up. with height you should be happy to use bar as much as required to improve your glide. all the above were the reasons i sold my peak as i was not ready to do all the above. the points above are where ou need to be to fly cross country in the uk.

above is being happy and comfortable yes i have got another 2-3 but only to see how i fell on it, after all i have now been flying 5 years nearly and have got on the way to 500 hours.

make your own decisions as it will be you who has to live with the conciquenses of your actions.

but as john has earlier said there is a lot of sence in what he says

cheers gary

Davehorne · Post by **Davehorne** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:04 am

I went through the same brain-aching process a few months ago Brian. I was going to go for a "low end" 1-2 as I had only flown my DHV1 U-turn since CP but Stevie Giles suggested I should at least try one or two of the newer EN B / higher end 1-2s.

Well I put several hours on a Rush2, a Swift and and Epsilon-6 and to be honest I was comfortable on all of them even though they all felt different from each other in the air, in conditions varying from very rough to glassy smooth on different sites.

All I would say is that I'm glad I tried them all out and not just for an hour or so each, that's the only way I could make my mind up in the end, in relation to what I want out of flying.

"Try before you buy", it's a very individual thing.

But you know all that anyway

gordie · Post by **gordie** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:50 am

gary stenhouse wrote: yet i could say between 90 to 95 % of top pilots cant even do a wing over or spiral or sat, so does this mean thay should not be flying the wings they fly.

Err did you mean 5 -10% of top pilots can not do wing overs e.t.c. ? Don't know where your figures come from Gary....

Nearly all pilots who are flying top level wings have to skills to fly one, unfortunately there will always be a small minority of people who will aspire to fly comp type wings way to early in their flying carrier, often when they have more money then sense and it is easy for them to acquire a hot wing. These are the pilots one reads about in the accident reports and are often the pilots who after a few scares are then most vocal about the 'dangers' of flying such wings, often still in denial that it was their skills what let them down and content on placing all the blame on the wing. All wings are safe its the pilots skill level which may make them dangerous.

Best advice is like Dave says get out and demo a wing, don't buy it because the advert looked good or because your mate has one. And if you do demo try and demo each wing in the same conditions ideally on the same day, as if its a bumpy day you will conceive the glider to be more of a handful to fly.

Misk · Post by **Misk** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:51 am

If you see a pilot flying SATS and wingovers at low altitude you think he is a 'top pilot'? And you don't question his airmanship????? These maneuvers should be saved for a safe environment only and are surely not to be used as a 'test' for moving up a class of wing!

When was the last time you saw Guthrie doing wingovers?

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:34 am

But Guthrie wears ladies under garments, so I don't see any weight to your statement Ian

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:11 pm

should i of said any british top pilot
other than rirchard chaffe flying my peak, he is the only pilot i have seen who can do proper wingovers.

i have never seen any other bpc pilot doing such things or any of the top national xc league do any of them.

even when i have been flying 20 years i still will not be good enough in your eyes, however such is life i no longer seak the advice of others when choosing wings i just buy them.

Misk · Post by **Misk** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:30 pm

Your missing my point Gary - which was not directed at you personally.

'Top' british pilots maybe don't do flashy maneuvers where you can see them because our sites don't give safe clearance - and maybe because they have the airmanship to match their skills?

I've never been on a kite surf rig so you might be in with a chance; but if you lend me some kit I'm up for some lessons if you have the time......

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:31 pm

lost my blob and through the dumby out i just dont like to be refered to as being a bad pilot who blames his tools. if you realy know me then you would know this. if by posting information after an accident where you nearly died is blaming your glider then so be it. yes i did question the parashutal stability only because the person who bought it and another had involantery stalls both resulting in hitting the deck, fortunately they were ok. probably pilot error but best to try and find the cause. every accident has normaly got more than 1 factor that turns it into an incident.

this i beleive was my case

1 i had a poor sleep as i kept on falling out my peraglider ( hence why i thought i was dreaming when i became concious
2 mad dog allready had wound us up that we would all die if we went to grand bonard.

3 i was chosen as last man off as i proved my ability to climb and make my own decisions 60k through alps previous day by myself

4 i beleive at the very moment i used my ptt to ask confirmation on change of flight plan, something went wrong as all i can remember from there is thinking few it back above and ready to fly.

5 what i would of done differently, ignored theguides instruction to fly tornet and flew the way i had previous days lots of clearnce no ridge soaring and only using big climbs to get high.

if i had flown the flight my way then it probably would not of happend

cheers gary

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:42 pm

Strange maybe but when I posted this last night SATS wing overs spirals were not on my mind. I was thinking purely about XC, thermalling, ridge soaring and the associated in - flight incidents you are likely to encounter. And with the gliders(and harness') having very different flying characteristics are you happy with where you are in your flying to be able to cope with what comes your way?

JW

Misk · Post by **Misk** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:42 pm

Gaz - I don't know if that is aimed at me or Gordie? If it's me then yes I take responsibility for my actions, there's no-one else up there to take the hit for you?!

My comments about airmanship and acro were not aimed at you directly!

You praise RC for his skills and I agree a hugely skilled pilot. Don't underestimate the risks he takes on though - high stress maneuvers at low altitude caused him a reserve deployment from very low level this year. Acro, including wingovers, is not something to be taken lightly or used to 'prove' yourself to your mates. - that was my general point, non-acro pilots are allowed to fly DHV 2 too!

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:17 pm

Gary, nearly all of your accidents were caused due to flying paragliders & hanggliders that were way above your flying skills, learn by this and move on which I think you have.

Far too many pilots change thier wings & alti varios far to early instead of concentrating on the much more important issue - learning to fly the air ! then learning to fly with their instruments.

GlennP · Post by **GlennP** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:27 pm

Is a dhv1 a 'safe' wing?

In my very limited experience you will still have collapses and assymeyrics on a dhv1 but you will feel nothing through the risers or brakes before it happens as the dhv1 range lacks feedback so as not to scare an initio pilots in their first flying hours.

If you fly with the mentality of " this is a safe wing it will save me" then are you safer in reality? Recently it came about that certain dhv1s can lock in during spirals and the only way out is a reserve toss. Safe?

You can still enter a cascade of events on a 1 or 1/2 with ham fisted inputs.

Plus any pre 2003/2004 wings will be less pitch stable than wings passed after the dhv tightened up their criteria.

Paragliding is a dangerous sport no matter how 'safe' we might think we are on a 1 or 1/2.

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:32 pm

Im not sure why low level wing overs or sats are mentioned? I never mentioned sats, never mind anything low level. Nor has anyone mentioned or implied showing off to your mates?
Have i missed something here or are folk making stuff up to make a point?
Anyway, if flying your current wing 100% is not the right time to change up, when is the right time?

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:36 pm

Acro, including wingovers, is not something to be taken lightly

If your all uptight about it your not going to be able to do it. And you need an element of devil may care other wise no one would do it.

or used to 'prove' yourself to your mates.

Erm,.... These top level acro guys look like some of the biggest show off's on the planet, other wise thier would do all thier thing in strict privacy and there would be no need for comps. In fact I think I would go so far to say that ALL flyers have a eliment of "show off" about them, whats wrong with that?

I also think there as some people who take this all WAY WAY to seriously, its not rocket science, remember Mahoney when he was here! THE best PG flyer this club has seen, BALLS the size of footballs and could not give a shite..... This is all that is required, how big are your balls, simple as that.! If your BALLS are not big enough your never going to learn the skills. Oh and Paulo was not far behind, but seeing Mahony strap a paramotor to his back on his G force acro wing, climb to not much more than 200 foot and just start SATING... And the really funning this was seeing Freeman trying to give him a lesson as hes just about to talk off.!!

NHPC Private and Public Forum

Something to replace my lovely Yellow Epsilon, HELP!!!!

Something to replace my lovely Yellow Epsilon, HELP!!!!

Wings

Wings

.

Gary...

Dhv 1 ........safe?