Active flying

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:44 pm

Ever since I started paragliding (Only a couple of years) I keep hearing this term of active flying! I've looked up the term but people seem to have different opinions of what it means from keeping the canopy directly over your head to letting the canopy go with the air currents.

My novice opinion I would guess is a bit of both! If you're in turbulence you try and keep the wing above your head, but at the same time if the wing dives to one side let it go and use the energy to do whatever is required including using the dive to re enter the thermal or maybe just to square up.

Are these theories reasonable?

I'd like to hear from the more experienced (Gordie) as I'm sure there's others out there thinking the same.

Thanks

JW

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:57 am

very interesting post

there is so many ways of acive flying and some times i would say relaxing feeling whats going on and going with the flow can some times be the suxess of zero collapses.

the problem with flying is a lot of people get tense when things get bumby and freeze up pull the breaks on and stop moving with the glider.

imo in order to keep a wing in shape is move arround in your harness naturaly ie when the glider is slightly unloading on one side roll to that side and it will repressurise this way you are preventing a collapse before it starts. if you were to freeze up and move from the soft side and load the more pressured side you are more likely to get a collapse.

i like to fly with only a small amount of break that is enough to feel whats happening up there. and it is surprising on how you can make the most of every bit of lift, as i will continualy be pulling myself into the lift where ever it is.

however i am sure there is a lot down to personal feel and glider choice.

ie glider choice, generaly lower dhv the less the feed back but a lot more benign higher dhv much more constructive feedback and as long as you reckognise what it is you shold be able to prevent 90% of the oncoming colapse prevention is the answere not dealing once it is gone.

in realy rough air you may well have to be quite aggresive in order to stop surges etc.

most importantly air time the more you fly the more you learne, and tune in close your eyes take a sip of water and if that fails shit yourself

cheers gary

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:29 pm

C'Mon lads I'd appreciate your views on this one. The hang gliding gear has been sold this week so I'm 100% paragliding now and I really need to properly start learning about the best way to do things. I've only been half hearted up until now seeing paragliding as the second best option now it's my only option so I want to get the best from the wing.

I'd rather listen to pilots I know and trust.

JW (Paraglider Pilot)

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:18 pm

there must be a lot of views out there and all are worthy of hearing, even if they are not the norm it doe'nt say there not right

cheers gary

Chris L · Post by **Chris L** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:41 pm

Well I agree with Gary I thought active flying was all to do with braking the glider from diving forward and letting off the brakes when it pitches backwards, but I think its as much about feeling what it does through the harness by relaxing and rolling with the movement conveyed through the wing in active air.
I really only discovered this when flying in rougher conditions and staying relaxed leaning back in the harness instead of becoming more tense and leaning forward (which reduces the feeling through the harness, in my opinion)
By leaning or rolling into the side of the wing as the lines become slack so taking up the tension seems to counter collapses and provides a better feel for whats actually going on, I've found it takes a bit of getting used to, but once you can just accept it and go with the flow it works man

Anyway I'll have plenty of time to test it out flying in the Alps for the next 4 weeks

Keep an eye on the XC League, I'll see if I can beat Jan this time

Bradleisure · Post by **Bradleisure** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:43 pm

I'd compare active flying to trying to get an impetuous youth to do what's right...

Don't try to hard to make it happen simply try to make the out come what you hoped for!

If it all goes to pot blame the kid and enforce your control.

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:57 am

The hang gliding gear has been sold this week so I'm 100% paragliding now

mmmmmmmmmmmmm??????????????
What can I say?
Maybe best not to say anything!!!
But can I resist?

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:58 am

Probably not!

Bradleisure · Post by **Bradleisure** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:04 am

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:10 am

A sad day for the hang gliding community to lose such a great ambassador.

Welcome John, now in the words of Rabbit Bartholemew 'Lets go bustin down the doors'

Oh, active flying, two types in my book, keeping it above your head in the rough stuff with brake, speed bar pressure and weight shift, and reacting to the messages that the wing gives through the harness to find the lift and avoid the sink. Still experimenting, I only fly with a feel on the brakes normally, but use opposite brake to feel the thermal size and shape.
I think it's an individual thing that comes with time, but interesting to hear peoples views. I think most people will be frightened to post in case they say something others consider to be wrong. (Like using the speed bar?)

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:30 am

I think theres a great deal of stuff n noncence when trying to describe this. Its a little like describing how you ride a bike, and I guess there is your answer John, from me any how.

If I was to offer only one thing, it would be.....

relax!

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:36 am

I think most people will be frightened to post in case they say something others consider to be wrong. (Like using the speed bar?)

That's always a possibility Brian. I don't know if some people think I'm just kidding here but I'm not I really do want info. Maybe others don't know properly either so they can't comment?

I'm OK checking the wing diving or behind me and I'm OK with the rolling effect and trying to make the best use of the inertia the wing can build up. What I don't quite get yet is when people say the feeling they get through the harness (Feed back) or feel though the lines? I've just bought a new harness because of that. Ali G flew my glider and harness and said the feed back was minimal or none existent so maybe I haven't experienced feedback proper yet? Are they just talking about the pull from the lift against the harness if so I also understand that and can use that info, I just need to get it right so I can get a better understanding.

I know several well respected pilots who are often having collapses and close calls is this because they are not addressing what the wing is doing in the manner they should.(Active flying) I'm not a hero and don't want this kind of flying and I don't want to get hurt that is why I ask when I'm not sure.

I can tell you most things about hang gliding......One thing for sure it knacks your joints as you get older

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:09 am

I know several well respected pilots who are often having collapses and close calls

This is probably more to do with the air they are flying in, their weight on the wing and how much they are 'trying' than it has to do with their active flying ability. Some wings will be more prone to slight deflations than others, particularly if the pilot is on the lower part of the weight range. Some pilots will put themselves in positions others might not and fly slower than others might in an attempt to squeeze into the tightest thermal in the tightest of corners. I have done this once and almost spun the wing in an over cooked avoidance, another wing would have kicked my arse. I've taken that as a learning curve and won't be going there again in a hurry, likewise my choice of wing will remain a safer option. I think it's all about what you want from the sport and life, more 'ambitious pilots' will do things I will shy away from, but ultimately they may fly further.
The harness change will take time. When I changed to my gin genie I couldn't feel much difference, but as I grew into the harness I began to recognise what it was saying, don't be impatient, a nice smooth day at the coast is a good time to try adjustments, get things right and start to feel the difference rather than an arse twitching day in the hills. I was surprised how much difference to feel small adjustments make.

Bradleisure · Post by **Bradleisure** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:05 pm

I'm sure you already know this....

The biggest factor I've found on the amount of feed back from the wing is the harness width adjustment (I've found wider more

, narrower less

).

Be carefull though as there is a set width that the wings are tested / certified with and they may / do react differently when not set to this width!

Misk · Post by **Misk** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:32 pm

John - I tried writing a post but it didn't make sense!

The right harness is essential, relaxing is supposed to be a good thing but I can rarely do it. If a wing has a collapse it doesn't always mean you have done something wrong. But, if it doesn't recover you are definitely doing something wrong!

Active flying is a combination of bullying and sympathy - do lots of practice and you will know when it is going well.

I personally think that in roll, turn and thermalling the use of weight shift is far more important than the use of brakes.

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:58 pm

Active flying...dealing with a situation before it becomes much worse...simple.

John you did your CP two years ago with a registered school its a bit late to be asking now ?

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:23 pm

John you did your CP two years ago with a registered school its a bit late to be asking now ?

I did it with a very good school as it happens. I just didn't pay attention I was always like that at school too ...Head in the clouds. Thanks for your valuable words.

Thanks to the others also all good stuff.

antobaird · Post by **antobaird** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:57 pm

I was lcuky enough to catch East Hill a couple of weeks back at it's best...that is about 12knots - Perfect for zero altitude flying through the braken. Great fun.

As the wind finally dropped off I spent the last quarter of an hour or so ground handling on take off. This must be one of the best ways to practice active flying (before you need to do it for real). Inducing large pitch movements and then damping them - or trying to damp the pitch just as the leading edge tucks and not drop the wing, or starting large asymmetric yaw/pitch combinations. Perfect practice - far more wing movement then you are likely to experience in the air (hopefully?).

I also remember a very amusing session of lying down at the top of Moneylaws in my harness, wing overhead trying to keep it flying with eyes closed. A sort of zen-active-flying practice?

So note to self: Must practice more ground handling if wind to light to stay up!

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:51 pm

That's a cracking idea Anto in fact if the wind drops tonight I'm going to the local field to do some ground SIV. It's great when you get positive comments such as this they are so helpful. I also like the Zen method of flying

just as long as no one sees me doing it

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:33 pm

i have also been doing the zen thing when flying out at height with no one else there a great feeling of just pure thought and escapeisum.

groung handing is the backbone of pg and the more you do it the better you get.

when i was at my peak of kitesurfing, flying foil kites in the sea i was able to get dragged backwards forwords upside down, i never would let the kite go in the drink. this came from feel and determination and a hell of a lot of draggings. but when the alternative was to swim back in with lines wrapped arround you, you either learnt quick or drowned.

crook_101 · Post by **crook_101** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:50 pm

Hi John,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPo082yX ... re=related

Last 1/2 of this vid may be of some use for active......unless you want to go climbing up the lamp posts on Seaham......!!!

Cheers,
crook_101

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:05 pm

Now that was really worth watching how good was he. So in one day I have learned about the Zen technique and now Moochin? a technique well worth trying to master. I bet Ronnie Freeman hasn't tried this it's probably too simple.

Actually Anto Mad Dog Dave Hunter and myself tried the flapping technique tonight on East Hill. The place should be napalmed and burned off the face of the earth. Howling a gale and dropped to zero within 15 min's

But we did have a spot landing comp but modesty prevents me from posting the results.

dave-mclaughlin · Post by **dave-mclaughlin** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:26 pm

John Wallis wrote:Now that was really worth watching how good was he. So in one day I have learned about the Zen technique and now Moochin?

You want Moochin? See Mr. Cab Calloway:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08wOPt-2PeE

All together now.........

Hi-de-hi-de-hi-di-hi!
Ho-de-ho-de-ho-de-ho!
He-de-he-de-he-de-he!
Ho-de-ho-de-ho!

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:32 pm

Iv'e also had a brilliant day on East hill, you lot must of arrived after 6.00pm ? anyway I thought you did an SIV with Jocky Sanderson...how bloody active is that

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:36 am

Ron all joking aside I do have a pretty good idea what active flying is about I was trying to invoke some healthy usable discussion so others could pick up bits of info. Actually I found some of the discussions I've had about this really good, people have their own methods and they do what's best for them. You can't learn too much can you? If there's enough wind today I'm gonna see if I can wing walk Garry's truck

Bradleisure · Post by **Bradleisure** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:15 pm

John how did you enjoy your active flying today?

Didn't see you get a single fold...

You must be doing something right considering the conditions 6 ups and downs!

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:47 pm

Wasn't there mate was busy keeping the country on its feet