Looking at Garys flight here http://www.nhpc.org.uk/nhpc/modules.php ... ghtID=1755
FAI triangle? so I down loaded the igc and checked it with GPS dump... yes sure enough GPS dump confirmed the score was a valid FAI. CompeGPS also confirmed it.
So it would seem there is no need to close the gaps between TO & Landing. I notice compeGPS has Triangle Gap 16.2% maybe this can be upto a certain % ? As to want this % can be upto, needs more digging.
FAI rules, does anyone know for sure?
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FAI rules, does anyone know for sure?
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Certain
Read this document - section 7d - particularly the bit on courses and observation zones. You need to close the course to within an observation point of 400m.
http://www.fai.org/hang_gliding/documents/sc7
Alternatively look at the national league rules where it is all more clearly presented.
http://www.pgcomps.org.uk/
The rules posted on this forum for OLC scoring state that it will score a triangle or out and return if you get within 20% of achieving it. Gary came within 16% of achieving it so got scored. Clearly he did not complete a proper triangle so didn’t deserve the multiplied points. Indeed below the Triangle Gap is a field for valid triangle - which is empty!
GPS Dump is brilliant for analysing flights but the data has to be interpreted to be used sensibly for any scoring method being used - this is why the national league uses a pilot committee to determine whether a flight is valid or not.
http://www.fai.org/hang_gliding/documents/sc7
Alternatively look at the national league rules where it is all more clearly presented.
http://www.pgcomps.org.uk/
The rules posted on this forum for OLC scoring state that it will score a triangle or out and return if you get within 20% of achieving it. Gary came within 16% of achieving it so got scored. Clearly he did not complete a proper triangle so didn’t deserve the multiplied points. Indeed below the Triangle Gap is a field for valid triangle - which is empty!
GPS Dump is brilliant for analysing flights but the data has to be interpreted to be used sensibly for any scoring method being used - this is why the national league uses a pilot committee to determine whether a flight is valid or not.
Last edited by Misk on Tue May 01, 2007 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
As far as I know aboutr British XC leagues, rules are a little different for defined and not defined triangles.
Not defined triangle should actually close the track, i.e. have points P1, P2, ...... Pn-1, Pn where line P1 - P2 would intersect line Pn-1 - Pn and the whole triangle fits within P1 .... Pn, and any points from that range can be apexes of the triangle you score - gpsdump will pick the best ones for you.
Defined triangles shoud have Start, TP1 and TP2 points, Start doesn't have to be takeoff - you just fly through a 400m radius cylinder centered at Start, then trough a 400m cylinder centered at TP1, same with TP2 and same with Start again. Typically the scoring distance will be 3x400m=1200m less than Start-TP1-TP2-Start path because you don't have to fly as far as the actual turnpoints.
So there is a possibility of not actually closing a defined FAI triangle by up to 800m if the task was started and finished at opposite points within Start cylinder.
Not defined triangle should actually close the track, i.e. have points P1, P2, ...... Pn-1, Pn where line P1 - P2 would intersect line Pn-1 - Pn and the whole triangle fits within P1 .... Pn, and any points from that range can be apexes of the triangle you score - gpsdump will pick the best ones for you.
Defined triangles shoud have Start, TP1 and TP2 points, Start doesn't have to be takeoff - you just fly through a 400m radius cylinder centered at Start, then trough a 400m cylinder centered at TP1, same with TP2 and same with Start again. Typically the scoring distance will be 3x400m=1200m less than Start-TP1-TP2-Start path because you don't have to fly as far as the actual turnpoints.
So there is a possibility of not actually closing a defined FAI triangle by up to 800m if the task was started and finished at opposite points within Start cylinder.
It would appear the GAP formula is not a hard and fast figure. I would guess that different comps have diferent parameters, and might possibly set diferences on a given day?
I would think for world records this would have to be a fixed figure that does not change?
One thing for sure is that it looks like war any peace to read....
Plesed I aint comps officer.
From PDF file from FAI site
I would think for world records this would have to be a fixed figure that does not change?
One thing for sure is that it looks like war any peace to read....
Plesed I aint comps officer.
From PDF file from FAI site
9. SCORING AND FLIGHT VERIFICATION
9.1 Scoring will be done according to the Race scoring programme, version ……. using the ………….. scoring
formula. (2.29.2). GAP parameters will be announced at the first team leader briefing.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
.
GAP SCORING is not the same as gap as mentioned in GPSDump of CompGPS. It is a means of scoring individual tasks on a time (race) basis with multiple start gates, early bird bonuses etc and will determine the 'value' of a task on a given day on the basis of the achievability demonstrated by the field of competitors.
Don't be confused - it has NOTHING to do with scoring XC for our, or the national league!
Scoring XC just should not be this difficult!
Don't be confused - it has NOTHING to do with scoring XC for our, or the national league!
Scoring XC just should not be this difficult!
-
John Wallis
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- Posts: 4072
- Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:17 pm
- Location: Northumberland
[quote]Scoring XC just should not be this difficult! [quote]
I will second that
I will second that
Last edited by John Wallis on Tue May 01, 2007 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Livetrack24 wannyjollis
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
CompeGPS is set at a Gap of 20% for a DHV PG/HG OLC competition.
I gradually reduced the size of Garys flight to eventually come to a "None Valid Triangle" for the FAI Triangle score.
Looking deeper...
Compare Steve Giles FAI, shorter distances but retrospectively a better score, because he closed the Gap down to 5% ?
So on the face of it there is a 20% margin for your TO and landing but the smaller you get that Gap the more points you get.!!
I gradually reduced the size of Garys flight to eventually come to a "None Valid Triangle" for the FAI Triangle score.
Looking deeper...
Compare Steve Giles FAI, shorter distances but retrospectively a better score, because he closed the Gap down to 5% ?
So on the face of it there is a 20% margin for your TO and landing but the smaller you get that Gap the more points you get.!!
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Lets not forget this is nothing to do with the pgcomps or NATXC who must have there own limits on the "Triangle Gap"
This is the DHV OLC FAI rules.
I cant find anything in gpsdump nor compeGPS that takes NATXC rules into account I might be wrong. All the software related to using a GPS I have seen is based around the OLC.
I wanted to find the max Triangle Gap and I think I have found it, 20%. But the smallest this Gap is the better the score will be, and rightly so.
This is the DHV OLC FAI rules.
I cant find anything in gpsdump nor compeGPS that takes NATXC rules into account I might be wrong. All the software related to using a GPS I have seen is based around the OLC.
I wanted to find the max Triangle Gap and I think I have found it, 20%. But the smallest this Gap is the better the score will be, and rightly so.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
I'm don't think you are right about that.
To be classed as a triangle by OLC you have to achieve 80% of a triangle course. If you manage that your 'scoring distance' is multiplied by 2 to give OLC points. Whether you manage 80% or 95% it matters not it will still be scored as 'scoring distance' x2 to give OLC points.
A proper triangle you must close the course by returning to within 800 m of your start track point. This triangle 'gap' is quoted by GPSDump CompGPS etc so you can check if it is valid or not.
GAP Scoring formula is as Sergy says something totally different that does not concern us.
To be classed as a triangle by OLC you have to achieve 80% of a triangle course. If you manage that your 'scoring distance' is multiplied by 2 to give OLC points. Whether you manage 80% or 95% it matters not it will still be scored as 'scoring distance' x2 to give OLC points.
A proper triangle you must close the course by returning to within 800 m of your start track point. This triangle 'gap' is quoted by GPSDump CompGPS etc so you can check if it is valid or not.
GAP Scoring formula is as Sergy says something totally different that does not concern us.
I can only go from the software, have they invested much time and in the case of CompeGPS and seeyou much money, possibly hundreds of thousands of sheckles, would make sure thay got it right? I think so.
Like the examples show above, compe tells us the FAI Trangle is valid or not. You also have to take on board would the FAI give there name to it if they thought that a OLC FAI Triangle was not "proper"
It looks like the UK NATXC League has not been given the slightest bit of consideration when these GPS reading and scoring programs where conceived. With the technology and brain power available it would have been quite easy to produce something that took wind direction and topo into account to come up with an automated scoring system that has no need for a human to decide if ridge lift came into play.
I find it interesting that this is the case..and you have to ask yourself why? With the now compulsary use of GPS is this the future way to score? Or is there a big big BIG hole in the market open for software to score NATXC League rules?
Like the examples show above, compe tells us the FAI Trangle is valid or not. You also have to take on board would the FAI give there name to it if they thought that a OLC FAI Triangle was not "proper"
It looks like the UK NATXC League has not been given the slightest bit of consideration when these GPS reading and scoring programs where conceived. With the technology and brain power available it would have been quite easy to produce something that took wind direction and topo into account to come up with an automated scoring system that has no need for a human to decide if ridge lift came into play.
I find it interesting that this is the case..and you have to ask yourself why? With the now compulsary use of GPS is this the future way to score? Or is there a big big BIG hole in the market open for software to score NATXC League rules?
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
.
Have the FAI given their name to it?! The term FAI triangle is just a definition of a triangle with all angles exceeding 28%. It is not a mark of approved software.
Read the FAI rules or fly in a comp and you will find that getting to within 20% of goal is not very rewarding!
It would seem there is a gap in the market providing you do your research.
Read the FAI rules or fly in a comp and you will find that getting to within 20% of goal is not very rewarding!
It would seem there is a gap in the market providing you do your research.
Erm!!
I am simply collating the facts Ian, I aint asking if you like it.
Its all there to see, your denial don't change anything. As for these software houses getting it all wrong and not consulting the FAI.!!?
Well?
Shall we argue that big is larger than small
I am simply collating the facts Ian, I aint asking if you like it.
Its all there to see, your denial don't change anything. As for these software houses getting it all wrong and not consulting the FAI.!!?
Well?
Shall we argue that big is larger than small
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
I'm not saying they are wrong I am saying that they have to be used correctly to score FAI flights. OLC works off a totally different philosophy.
It's not denial just answering your question at the top of the post.
FAI rules, does anyone know for sure?
Yep - the FAI - here are their rules!
Read this document - section 7d - particularly the bit on courses and observation zones. You need to close the course to within an observation point of 400m.
http://www.fai.org/hang_gliding/documents/sc7
Sections 1.6.6 and 1.6.13 are a good start
It's not denial just answering your question at the top of the post.
FAI rules, does anyone know for sure?
Yep - the FAI - here are their rules!
Read this document - section 7d - particularly the bit on courses and observation zones. You need to close the course to within an observation point of 400m.
http://www.fai.org/hang_gliding/documents/sc7
Sections 1.6.6 and 1.6.13 are a good start
That is one Class of the FAI rules, it would seem there are many.
The OLC FAI being one of them which you cant seem to recognise, thats your choise. I would imagine since there are probably thousands of competitors world wide using it that the FAI would have had some hand in drawing up these rules?
Unless the OLC FAI Triangle rules are just all made up of course and the FAI just stands for Friggin Are Iritating!
PS
My post refered to a flight to which is based on the OLC rules.
The OLC FAI being one of them which you cant seem to recognise, thats your choise. I would imagine since there are probably thousands of competitors world wide using it that the FAI would have had some hand in drawing up these rules?
Unless the OLC FAI Triangle rules are just all made up of course and the FAI just stands for Friggin Are Iritating!
PS
My post refered to a flight to which is based on the OLC rules.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.