OK Crossfell yesterday I came across some spring time thermals for the first time on a para glider. Compared to a hang glider it's quite different but I know how to cope in a hang glider.
I've read and practised to some degree about the initial surge.... ie canopy surges back brakes off let the wing speed up and fly. As you exit the thermal especially the really pokey ones you have to time it right to check the canopy coming forward. When the thermals are gentle this is easy to cope with but when they are strong you need to be quicker and have your wits about you.
Talking to the Wolf who gave some good advice what he does when leaving the thermal..... When he exits and the canopy is surging forward he uses the energy to turn and head back which made complete sense to me.
I WANT NEED to know how other more experienced pilots cope with these conditions. I would also like to hear from other low airtime pilots how they manage when the conditions get boisterous.
We tend to have a lot of fighting on this forum which turns a lot of people off so lets get back to flying and helping each other and making it safer for each other so please make this a thread where we can all learn from as at this time of year it is of vital importance.
C'mon give me the knowledge please.
Regards
JW
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John Wallis
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Give me your feed back. Give me your knowledge........
Livetrack24 wannyjollis
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
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Bob Sutherland
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Not ever flown before, exc big planes where nice looking people smile and try to make being crammed battery hen like for 4 or 5 hours slightly bearable.
I recall the first 40 hours involving a great deal of shitting myself, and generally looking for the exit door should the elevator start to get a little too fast or I felt I was getting sucked up into the sky. I recall one occasion where I was so stiff with fright I was unable to give more than 2 inches of input to the wing for fear it might just fold, and I would be sent whirling to the ground. I just managed to coaks my trembling, jibbering state to the landing field.
Over time and only time in the air have I started to feel me comfortable with the air and with my wing. The realisation that height is your friend, your wing is quite unlikely to just fold and drop you 200 feet. I feel this year has been a turning point for me personally, I would never have thought I would not only be comfortable at great height but I am now keen to get there, and seek out the means to do so. Having collapsed the wing deliberately I now know that this is quite a benign event. Having had a very big involuntary collapse in annacy I know that this can also be quite benign. With more understanding of the conditions I feel more capable of dealing and using them.
Being at one with your wing is another big thing which only time can provide you. I do try to get more acquainted with it every time I go out, I like to do wing overs (well this is a very loose term) I would put it more like chucking it about. This I feel for me provides a good understanding of the wing pressures, how it flys and wing control. I used to do this given what I look at now as not much height, so I reserve this for when I have plenty of it. I also like to do spirals when I can, the forces involved in this will really take you by supprize. I have no doubt your SIV will provide all that for you.
But these are just my two pennys worth John, I still only have just over 110 hours or so. But if there is one thing you can take away, there is nothing like "time in the air". I like you saught answers to question after question, some of the gems I did get from the poor sods that I batered the ears of where really good, for me anyhow.
I recall the first 40 hours involving a great deal of shitting myself, and generally looking for the exit door should the elevator start to get a little too fast or I felt I was getting sucked up into the sky. I recall one occasion where I was so stiff with fright I was unable to give more than 2 inches of input to the wing for fear it might just fold, and I would be sent whirling to the ground. I just managed to coaks my trembling, jibbering state to the landing field.
Over time and only time in the air have I started to feel me comfortable with the air and with my wing. The realisation that height is your friend, your wing is quite unlikely to just fold and drop you 200 feet. I feel this year has been a turning point for me personally, I would never have thought I would not only be comfortable at great height but I am now keen to get there, and seek out the means to do so. Having collapsed the wing deliberately I now know that this is quite a benign event. Having had a very big involuntary collapse in annacy I know that this can also be quite benign. With more understanding of the conditions I feel more capable of dealing and using them.
Being at one with your wing is another big thing which only time can provide you. I do try to get more acquainted with it every time I go out, I like to do wing overs (well this is a very loose term) I would put it more like chucking it about. This I feel for me provides a good understanding of the wing pressures, how it flys and wing control. I used to do this given what I look at now as not much height, so I reserve this for when I have plenty of it. I also like to do spirals when I can, the forces involved in this will really take you by supprize. I have no doubt your SIV will provide all that for you.
But these are just my two pennys worth John, I still only have just over 110 hours or so. But if there is one thing you can take away, there is nothing like "time in the air". I like you saught answers to question after question, some of the gems I did get from the poor sods that I batered the ears of where really good, for me anyhow.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Err.... that wasnt actually what i was saying John......!
I was talking about entering a thermal, not exiting one!
As you enter the rising air in a thermal the wing will drop back behind you, at this point... HANDS UP!! whenever the wing is behind you always let it fly.
Then as it recovers the wing will fly forwards over your head and start to dive..... USE the energy in the dive to turn the wing into the thermal, rather than damping it out and then turning....
The stronger the thermal the more pronounced the effect will be..... but the intention is not to waste any of the energy in the wing.
PS... The above is all Jockys wisdom ... not mine....!
But it really does work.... the best way is to sit on a hill and watch good pilots enter thermals, you will see it is all one smooth coordinated action, which looks effortless, but in reality is requiring a huge amount of pilot input. Compare that with the guy who lets the wing dive as he enters ther thermal, brakes the dive, then turns and then falls out of the far side of the thermal....
That was part of the education in Brazil.... sitting and watching....
PS.... we dont have enough thermals here to do it!!
I was talking about entering a thermal, not exiting one!
As you enter the rising air in a thermal the wing will drop back behind you, at this point... HANDS UP!! whenever the wing is behind you always let it fly.
Then as it recovers the wing will fly forwards over your head and start to dive..... USE the energy in the dive to turn the wing into the thermal, rather than damping it out and then turning....
The stronger the thermal the more pronounced the effect will be..... but the intention is not to waste any of the energy in the wing.
PS... The above is all Jockys wisdom ... not mine....!
But it really does work.... the best way is to sit on a hill and watch good pilots enter thermals, you will see it is all one smooth coordinated action, which looks effortless, but in reality is requiring a huge amount of pilot input. Compare that with the guy who lets the wing dive as he enters ther thermal, brakes the dive, then turns and then falls out of the far side of the thermal....
That was part of the education in Brazil.... sitting and watching....
PS.... we dont have enough thermals here to do it!!
It is sad to measure your life in terms of hours flown...... but even sadder not to.........
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John Wallis
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It was close enough......The point was you use the energy as the wing comes forward....However!! You don't really want to be turning straight away as the wing comes forward as you haven't mapped the size of the thermal?? True / false?? Is it a different technique on a para glider?Then as it recovers the wing will fly forwards over your head and start to dive..... USE the energy in the dive to turn the wing into the thermal, rather than damping it out and then turning....
Livetrack24 wannyjollis
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
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Anonymous
agreed
Hi John, I agree mate.
As to the question. I happened to be chatting to dennis in Oz when i read the post, I put the question to him, this was his reply.
"I think the bloke who said use the energy to turn back is on the money ....but they gotta remember where about the strong bubble is and be ready to bank it high on the turn into wind
then keep the turn going
on that same bank
and adjust it accordingly."If I find a strong punchy bubble that is about the same size as my wing thats the bank i need to have to stay in it ..Its almost like having the coreslide up the entire undersurface on the glider and I grab the lift with the outer brake...almost feels like a spiral but going up at an awesome rate, I got a strong punchy theremal at Gerards yesterday 6.5 up for about 500 metres ....was great feeling"
thankyou denis for rubbing it in.
I reckon that your asking about getting up in the thermal and not about stepping out the top or running away from it. as you fall out of the thermal you will get a little fall back and often a surge, its worth remembering if the wing is in front of you you can treat it rough, its your bi@$(within reason). when its behind you, be nice and get off the brakes. You will quickly learn the feel for when its dropping out.
Spring thermals bite alot of people because they are rusty. We are half as good as we think we are normaly, and in spring were half as good as we are when were good.
Be aggresive. if you want to play in rough air you gotta chuck it back at whatever gave you the knock. its a bit frightening when you cop a big whack from an insane thermal. wing drops behind you and then big surge. Often it does this and there isnt any lift there to be found, just a bullet of air. But having said that. your on a 1-2, dont worry too much, I recomend you stop it before it goes past the horizon(it will never get that far).
When you have passed one of these ripper spring bubbles, turn back. When you hit the lift(dont wait for the vario) turn again and get a good bank angle on it. I will often do a quick turn one way then straight back the other(mini wingover). this puts me beside where i entered the thermal. so i am less likely to fall out the side.
A pg will self centre on high bank. when your low. just bank it up. its better to be going up slowly than trying to flatten out and losing the thermal(a problem in spring). Bring the inside brake on and try not to move it around. plenty of weightshift(plenty) and adjust the turn with the outside brake. the best turn for me is with about 10%on the outside.
I have found when I am agressive with thermals I get less collapses and I get up quicker. its a mind set. i have days when i dont feel as confident in the rough and on those days i play around then go to the pub.
disclaimer. this advice is given as a hand to getting up in rough air. It does not allow for the suitability of a pilot to fly in it.
As to the question. I happened to be chatting to dennis in Oz when i read the post, I put the question to him, this was his reply.
"I think the bloke who said use the energy to turn back is on the money ....but they gotta remember where about the strong bubble is and be ready to bank it high on the turn into wind
then keep the turn going
on that same bank
and adjust it accordingly."If I find a strong punchy bubble that is about the same size as my wing thats the bank i need to have to stay in it ..Its almost like having the coreslide up the entire undersurface on the glider and I grab the lift with the outer brake...almost feels like a spiral but going up at an awesome rate, I got a strong punchy theremal at Gerards yesterday 6.5 up for about 500 metres ....was great feeling"
thankyou denis for rubbing it in.
I reckon that your asking about getting up in the thermal and not about stepping out the top or running away from it. as you fall out of the thermal you will get a little fall back and often a surge, its worth remembering if the wing is in front of you you can treat it rough, its your bi@$(within reason). when its behind you, be nice and get off the brakes. You will quickly learn the feel for when its dropping out.
Spring thermals bite alot of people because they are rusty. We are half as good as we think we are normaly, and in spring were half as good as we are when were good.
Be aggresive. if you want to play in rough air you gotta chuck it back at whatever gave you the knock. its a bit frightening when you cop a big whack from an insane thermal. wing drops behind you and then big surge. Often it does this and there isnt any lift there to be found, just a bullet of air. But having said that. your on a 1-2, dont worry too much, I recomend you stop it before it goes past the horizon(it will never get that far).
When you have passed one of these ripper spring bubbles, turn back. When you hit the lift(dont wait for the vario) turn again and get a good bank angle on it. I will often do a quick turn one way then straight back the other(mini wingover). this puts me beside where i entered the thermal. so i am less likely to fall out the side.
A pg will self centre on high bank. when your low. just bank it up. its better to be going up slowly than trying to flatten out and losing the thermal(a problem in spring). Bring the inside brake on and try not to move it around. plenty of weightshift(plenty) and adjust the turn with the outside brake. the best turn for me is with about 10%on the outside.
I have found when I am agressive with thermals I get less collapses and I get up quicker. its a mind set. i have days when i dont feel as confident in the rough and on those days i play around then go to the pub.
disclaimer. this advice is given as a hand to getting up in rough air. It does not allow for the suitability of a pilot to fly in it.
John.... Yes you have to map the size of the thermal...... but as steve said it depends on the size of the thermal.
A paraglider can turn pretty much in its own radius... in other words almost on its own wing tip. Just wait till the SIV..
SOOO... if you enter a strong punchy thermal, the wing will hang back, then surge forward, the thermal meanwhile is trying to push you out. Use the energy of the surge that follows the wing falling behind to turn into the thermal.
And as Steve said, when the wing is in front of you, she is your bitch, treat her rough and you can just about do anything you want. It is when the wing is behind you that you want to tippy toe.....
I had a climb pretty much straight of t/o in Brazil..... flew out 200m, wing went back, hands up, start to feel the dive and TURN, then 7m/s up.... but small and rough and fighting. The wing was on occasions in front of me, and it was a question of having to FIGHT to stay in the climb.... but bloody satisying when we topped out at base. POSITIVE brake input.... not faffing about....
AND you need to have an idea of where the thermal is, how big it is, which way to turn.....
and people think it is just a question of pulling two brake lines the right amount????
hahahahahh
BUT... as Steve said.... this is only my experience and not a guide. Go and do an SIV. You will then appreciate just what you can do with the wing in terms of brake travel, fast turns etc etc..... your flying will improve immeasurably.....
A paraglider can turn pretty much in its own radius... in other words almost on its own wing tip. Just wait till the SIV..
SOOO... if you enter a strong punchy thermal, the wing will hang back, then surge forward, the thermal meanwhile is trying to push you out. Use the energy of the surge that follows the wing falling behind to turn into the thermal.
And as Steve said, when the wing is in front of you, she is your bitch, treat her rough and you can just about do anything you want. It is when the wing is behind you that you want to tippy toe.....
I had a climb pretty much straight of t/o in Brazil..... flew out 200m, wing went back, hands up, start to feel the dive and TURN, then 7m/s up.... but small and rough and fighting. The wing was on occasions in front of me, and it was a question of having to FIGHT to stay in the climb.... but bloody satisying when we topped out at base. POSITIVE brake input.... not faffing about....
AND you need to have an idea of where the thermal is, how big it is, which way to turn.....
and people think it is just a question of pulling two brake lines the right amount????
hahahahahh
BUT... as Steve said.... this is only my experience and not a guide. Go and do an SIV. You will then appreciate just what you can do with the wing in terms of brake travel, fast turns etc etc..... your flying will improve immeasurably.....
It is sad to measure your life in terms of hours flown...... but even sadder not to.........
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ron freeman
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John Wallis
John Wallis, you have more experience flying in thermals than most in our club, let yourself go and kick arse with your wing but don't forget it takes time. When the air is smooth practise some tight turns...both ways. like flying your HG, its better to load your wing up in good thermals rather than trying to keep it flat.
Happy steady flying.
Happy steady flying.
Maximise your time & dosh do both Hanggliding & Paragliding 
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John Wallis
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Cheers Ron
You're right I do know how to work a thermal reasonably well but paragliding is a different beast and the reactions compared to a hang glider are similar but different if that makes sense. I wouldn't have to even think on a hang glider it would be completely automatic a bit driving your car after 30 years. But when you're in a different wing you tend to be a bit like a new driver and you're a bit more mechanical.
What prompted me to post this was when flying Man at Edge on Saturday I was getting a bit of rock and roll. I wasn't scared but I was "Concentrating quite hard" I was even going through what I'd read in the book and trying to put it into practise.
The wise words people are posting are invaluable and it helps me put a picture into my head which will be used on the next outing.
looking forward to trying out the turns when the wing is in front of me and converting the energy.
As AW said when she's in front of you it's your bitch do do what you want
Keep them coming everyone has different ways I'd like to hear them all.
JW
You're right I do know how to work a thermal reasonably well but paragliding is a different beast and the reactions compared to a hang glider are similar but different if that makes sense. I wouldn't have to even think on a hang glider it would be completely automatic a bit driving your car after 30 years. But when you're in a different wing you tend to be a bit like a new driver and you're a bit more mechanical.
What prompted me to post this was when flying Man at Edge on Saturday I was getting a bit of rock and roll. I wasn't scared but I was "Concentrating quite hard" I was even going through what I'd read in the book and trying to put it into practise.
The wise words people are posting are invaluable and it helps me put a picture into my head which will be used on the next outing.
looking forward to trying out the turns when the wing is in front of me and converting the energy.
As AW said when she's in front of you it's your bitch do do what you want
Keep them coming everyone has different ways I'd like to hear them all.
JW
Livetrack24 wannyjollis
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
I wouldn't dare give any advice, as I am still regularly shitting myself and have only about 50 hours.
BUT - I have found Jocky Sanderson's DVDs really good to understand what's going on when you hit punchy thermals. Specially "Speed to fly" and "Performance flying". I keep going back to them and there's something new every time.
Usually on the train going to some boring work meeting and dreamin of flying
Can't recommend them enough.
PS: Jocky isn't paying me for this
BUT - I have found Jocky Sanderson's DVDs really good to understand what's going on when you hit punchy thermals. Specially "Speed to fly" and "Performance flying". I keep going back to them and there's something new every time.
Usually on the train going to some boring work meeting and dreamin of flying
Can't recommend them enough.
PS: Jocky isn't paying me for this
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry.
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Sad Northerner
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John
there are several different scenarios, in regards to thermic activity and glider control, that can be applied to your query and each scenario would beg a different response.
However, the general advice that Ausie Steve gave you, in respect of being firm with the glider when it is in front and a little more tentative when it is behind, is right on the money. If I had anything to add to this it would be to keep in mind that the theory can be applied to each side of the wing independently. Doing this will help you keep the glider in level flight and make you a safer pilot, how it then transfers to thermal flying is a little more complicated.
Ali
there are several different scenarios, in regards to thermic activity and glider control, that can be applied to your query and each scenario would beg a different response.
However, the general advice that Ausie Steve gave you, in respect of being firm with the glider when it is in front and a little more tentative when it is behind, is right on the money. If I had anything to add to this it would be to keep in mind that the theory can be applied to each side of the wing independently. Doing this will help you keep the glider in level flight and make you a safer pilot, how it then transfers to thermal flying is a little more complicated.
Ali
All great theory, but as I watched at Cross Fell, apart from a little damping, all I saw was people just sitting, waiting for the next elevator.
However, if you watch Ron Don, even on a quiet day at the coast you will witness him experimenting with pitch control and energy retention in the wing. It can look a little precarious at times, but as the man has wings on his sh**, then I'm sure it must be worth a little go.
However, if you watch Ron Don, even on a quiet day at the coast you will witness him experimenting with pitch control and energy retention in the wing. It can look a little precarious at times, but as the man has wings on his sh**, then I'm sure it must be worth a little go.
See you out there!!!!!
Surf crazed and dazed
Livetrack24 Nezzy01
Surf crazed and dazed
Livetrack24 Nezzy01