Attention November Meeting

Sad Northerner · Post by **Sad Northerner** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:01 am

The problem with stating a max wind to fly in is that you can never (never) account for the variables.

22 mph has been stated as the max flyable wind now what if.... the air mass is unstable, the direction of the wind is variable, the pilot is inexperienced, they are light or heavy on their glider, the glider is a beginner or advanced glider, they are by the coast or in the mountains, there is or is not a run out over the back of the hill they haven't flown for a while or been on the drink the night before.....do I need to go one?

You see there is no 'one' max wind speed to fly in and being prescriptive about it only leads people to interpret things literally and not consider the other variables.

If you want to you could be pedantic and say that surely winds of 100 mph are too dangerous to fly in, and I would agree, but by stating but that 22 mph is the max your leading 'some' people to think that 21, 20 and 19 mph wind speed...etc are safe when, in fact, they are not always.

Ali

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:32 am

Ali Guthrie (aka Sad Northerner) wrote:22 mph has been stated as the max flyable wind now what if.... the air mass is unstable, the direction of the wind is variable, the pilot is inexperienced, they are light or heavy on their glider, the glider is a beginner or advanced glider, they are by the coast or in the mountains, there is or is not a run out over the back of the hill they haven't flown for a while or been on the drink the night before.....do I need to go one?

And all those factors of risk are reduced dramaticaly if the wind speed is 15mph. Increased to 29mph and the risk is greatly increased. As we all know 22mph will drag someone never mind 29mph, no matter of there "skill".

How about the guys who think 29 mph is ok give the rest of the club a demonstration on ground handing in 29 mph on a flat field. Would be very interesting and educational to watch. I think its bazar I am having to suggest such a crazy thing here to try and prove 29 mph is insane wind.

The whole point here is safety within a "club" which as a registered BHPA club would be expected to act responsibly. Just as the BHPA registered schools would be expected too.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:12 pm

this is strong wind take offs for world records this glider is Enzo 2 comp wing but looks proper full on shit but recovers well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzk3oNczZ_U

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:29 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiYYsTW6yWw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTA5LfzWeyQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl16N-xaocQ

It's ok, because no doubt these are ALL very unskilled, inexperienced.

berow · Post by **berow** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:05 pm

This post seems to have descended into trying to justify a point to fingers. Arent we going to discuss this at the meeting. Are we discussing launching in the mountains or launching at the coast in strong conditions. Fingers why are you so abrupt in your tone and why are you getting so involved. Its easy to preach but how can we listen to your point of view when by your own admission you dont fly and you gave up because of a bad accident. There have been too many assumptions and opinions and as much as we all respect you are showing concern for other human beings( admirable),why do you feel the need to ram your opinion down our throats. 2 out of the 3 videos show people flying in the mountains clearly not skilled enough to be doing so and as for the third are you joking?. We will discuss it in a considered manner and in due course I guess it will be posted.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:18 pm

It matters to me as I still have great friends in this club. I still like the sport and I still like this club.

Its been some time but the same rules apply, 22 mph was always an iffy safety line to cross. The wings have not improved as far as I know to cross it.

Do what ever you like, no one can stop you. But be aware you maybe encouraging others to think its ok and safe to do so. No matter how more, or less skilled thay maybe than you.

Take it easy, I hope you attend this safety meet so you can be involved with safety matters for the club.

Mehdi · Post by **Mehdi** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:00 pm

I have been away and just got the chance to read the 5 pages of comments.
It is always sad to hear any pilot having an accident or a near miss incident. when you play with fire you may get burnt at some point.
By no means I am the strongest pilot in this club so my comments are purely as a way of comments and adding my views to the discussion of safety and any information that may save a limb or a life is valid.
There are a handful of experienced pilots in our club which I would swear on but put them in a different condition they would not be as confident in them selves and get in a muddle and then they are not such good pilots. We can discuses and talk about safety but unless we put our selves in situations simulating incidents then we are not going to become confident in our gliders, breaks, risers lines etc .
I have mentioned SIV courses in the past with no interest probably because no one wants to be put in those situations because they think they can't handle the situations, well that is what is all about, learning.
Doing a SIV course isn't going to make an acro or a Xc pilot or stop future incidents but it will sure teach you your limits of your glider, your own limits and how to cure the problem if it happens and get you more confident in your flying.
There are pilots in our club that don't know which lines to use for big ears, cravat line or what a asymmetric tuck is or what to do if you have claps or knot in mid air or what it feels like when you are falling at 100 miles an hour on a full stall or why you would even have to pull a full stall.
The conditions in Uk at times can be extreme so flying times are limited so when we get half decent weather and hear other pilots go out we all think its ok for us to also.
When I fly abroad the sites are usually fixed with some kind of take off martial who have the authority to stopping someone from flying but as we do not have a fixed site then we can nominate a person who can give the green, amber or red flag on the forum. Again this is a suggestion it may work or may not.
I think our club should insist on siv courses and BHPA should not issue licenses before a successful siv has been completed.

Sad Northerner · Post by **Sad Northerner** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:27 pm

Hi Fingers (and everyone else)

despite the fact that you've ruffled a few feathers I know that you and I ultimately want the same goal, to make paragliding safer for our mates, it's just the means of getting to that goal that we are in disagreement about.

To demonstrate my point it's necessary to highlight the distinction between knowledge and understanding. For example a pilot may 'know' (because they were told so) that 25 mph is the max wind to fly in at the coast. My argument is that it is better if they 'understand the reasons why' a particular ridge is only safe to fly at or below a particular wind speed.

It is only when a pilot has an understanding of the contributing factors that they can become self-directing and make effective decisions based on their own personal thought process.

My concerns about attaching a set max figure wind speed to fly in devalues the importances of this thought process and partly shifts the onus of effective decision making to someone else other than the pilot himself. This would not be good because, for one, flying conditions never stay constant and each individual pilot should be able to and accept the responsibility of regularly reassessing whether it is safe to fly or not based on their personal ability and knowledge.

If, however, a pilot decides to fly when others think it is unsafe, short of advising (strongly in some cases) and guiding, there is not much else we can do. We have to appreciate that we are all different; we have different levels of understanding and ability and, perhaps more importantly, different perceptions of what an acceptable risk is.

Having said that I fully appreciate that things need to change. We have an opportunity now (I mean ‘right now’ when things are present in our minds) to take stock, to reflect for a minute and reboot, both as individuals and as a club, our understanding and attitude towards risk. I really hope that people will attend the November meeting and give this issue the attention that it deserves and appreciate that any finger pointing that occurs should only be at ourselves.

Hope this makes sense

Ali

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:54 pm

Well said Ali and yes it makes complete sense.

AngusB · Post by **AngusB** » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:00 pm

As much as I would love to be at the November meeting I can't get the night off work so please accept & minute my apologies.

RichardC · Post by **RichardC** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:39 am

Hi All,

I see that my accident has sparked quite a discussion... Firstly just to let you know I am recovering at home. I have a fracture of my T12 vertebrae and an elbow that needed a plate to put it back together. Currently in a body brace during the day. I should have full movement of the elbow after the pot comes of. 6 week sick note and I now just need to find a way to relieve the boredom...

I consider myself to be a conservative pilot. I'd have said safe if it wasn't for the accident

. I was at the coast the day before and saw people flying and others trying to fly, I chose not to. Brian, while I admire your skill taking off in high winds I would question your justification in flying when you yourself said you needed the speed system to penetrate at all, surely it would have only taken a small increase in wind speed to make the situation very different. We are all adults and make our own decisions but that is my view of the conditions and that is what lead me to leave the glider in the car.

My accident was as a result of a number of factors one being pilot error due to not assessing the conditions due in part to a desire to fly that little bit further.

I note a few people making the point that we are all free to fly as we see fit based on our ability and experience. As others have said in this thread people talk as if an accident is inevitable. So lets assume that is the case, this is a dangerous sport and there are risks involved.

The logical conclusion of this argument is that if accidents are going to happen we should do what we can to lessen the effects of these accidents, yes?

18 months ago I changed my harness for one with 17 cm foam back protection. Why? Having learnt that Mal Grace and Judith Mole had both had accidents that resulted in life changing spinal injury I started to look at my kit. At the time I was flying a light weight airbag harness, certified, yes, but I started to ask why I had it. Then Phil Mac suffered similar back injuries as I now have on Model ridge. That did it for me.

I now wonder what my back injuries would have been had I still had that harness or had I been flying a "certified" lightweight harness with far less protection. Have you looked at the test result for your harness? Have you compared test results of the harnesses you are thinking of buying? Any X-Alps competitors can disregard this

I've often wondered why people put weight above safety, my harness is only 3kg heavier than my old one. I remember a conversation I had when I was buying a large reserve and somebody said they would rather risk a broken leg than carry a larger reserve that weighed 1kg more. The mind boggles.....You can die from a broken leg.

As you can see from the length of this, I have time on my hands but if nothing else I hope that people learn from my accident not only regarding flying conditions and decisions but all aspects of safety.

Back to "Loose Women"

RichardC · Post by **RichardC** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:40 am

Post by **colin keightley** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:22 pm

Excellent write up Richard, hope your recovery isn't being too harsh on you.

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:33 pm

Hi Richard, pleased to hear you are on the mend, could you give an account of the accident from when you decide to cross the harbour at Whitby.

Cheers Ron