Attention November Meeting

RonDon · Post by **RonDon** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:50 pm

I think some of you fellowes are refering to me, spit it out men.

Yes I got it wrong.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:15 pm

Can I make a suggestion.

As January is usually a poor turn out for the meeting why don't we hold the auction then? You can bring all your unwanted Xmas presents

Use the November meeting to discuss the safety issues.

I would suggest that pilots make an exceptional effort to make it to this meeting as safety is paramount and it involves not only us but others and our loved ones.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:16 pm

yes ron one of the incidents was yours on Saturday and know that if Brian had not been flying you would not of took of as you had thought it was too windy. also this is the link to the video and you will actually see that if you had been hands up you would have got forward.

this video to me is a superb learning video to see that only by rons speedy stall as he was blown back saved it being a accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGnxsgSM8ZM

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:45 pm

All I saw in the video was Ron trying to get his feet in the bag which caused him to apply brakes.. Conditions looked far too windy and it was only a matter of time when it was all going to go tits up because more and more pg pilots were pushing the limits of pg performance. We should all learn by this big time and be very pleased it was not much more serious.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:15 pm

the problem on Saturday as no paraglider should have been flying as it was too windy IMHO. however soon as people see someone is flying they get lured into thinking that the wind metre is wrong as well as there intuition. this goes back to some of the meetings we had about high wind flying and that just because someone else is flying it does not mean its safe to be doing so. the fact you can get off on the beech doesn't say its safe as with unpredictable uk wind where it can pick up quickly. I am not saying don't do it but be careful and why bother as siting stationary pinned is something I done as a novice when I new no better but I guess we all have different asprations and expectations and this is what makes the sport so good.

but given that I have seen more people being blown back at the coast shows that the threshold is much smaller than inland flying.

berow · Post by **berow** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:40 pm

Saturday was a day for experienced pilots, who are confident on launch. Ok Ron had a problem but he dealt with it. It was clearly a day for flying even though I was pinned at trim , I could go anywhere on speed bar. This is a very grey area almost like a black art, which it shouldn't be. For me, an easy launch from the beach, soaring high, great view, massive beach to land on and a full speed bar to play with. This was a situation where I drew from the bank of groundhandling! when I needed to make a withdrawal it was worth the saving up. So when its windy I am in a field somewhere on my own normally. Not lately though. Ok, it takes lots of practice but if you put the time in you will improve your opportunity to fly. Saturday was totally top end but if you put the practice in it was well flyable IMHO.

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:51 pm

I think a debate on safety is a very good idea for a meeting particularly while it is fresh in everyone's minds

yes it will be fresh in the minds of the half a dozen or so that were there, but with out any proper preparation such an emotive subject runs the risk of descending into a shouting match.
safety is the most important of all subject and needs to be treated sensibly also if you intend to point wagging fingers it needs to be treated with some diplomacy
its my opinion what we need is a proper well thought out structured lecture on safety maybe specifically tailored to coastal flying
I agree that this is important important important but don't see any harm in taking a little time do digest the facts and come up with something that would be .... cant find the right word useful, helpful, professional, better.

As January is usually a poor turn out for the meeting why don't we hold the auction then? You can bring all your unwanted Xmas presents Wink Use the November meeting to discuss the safety issues.

why not do it the other way round
who's going to buy a Christmas cake in january

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:50 am

All these debates seem completely dominated by old sweats, experienced pilots so I thought I'd throw my two pennyworth in.

Firstly - I'm struggling with the auction but I'll be going anyway just for the craic - I've got nowt left to sell (apart from a few old clothes I should really be donating to the air ambulance) - and there's nowt else I want to buy. Isn't there another way to raise funds? Like a raffle with say 3 big prizes up for grabs - selling enough tickets to club members, family and friends and workmates to cover costs and make a healthy profit?

As for safety. It's great to see such a reaction to a couple of potentially very serious incidents. I hope the injured pilot is recovering well and those that are injury free are counting their blessings. It will be interesting to hear first hand accounts of what happened and more importantly what can be done to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Just out of curiosity do you guys who fly over water carry a hook-knife to cut your lines in case you get dumped?

But after all the initial emotive reaction has died down and it's been talked about in great detail it won't be long before we are all out enjoying flying again mainly in a very safe and responsible way each of us pushing our own boundaries to improve our skills and performance. This article about motivational factors for elite competition paragliders probably sums us all up - we are all driven by our hormones

and there's no stopping us
http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10.246 ... .1271-1281

So in reality the risk is that shit happens but that won't stop us flying and pushing on.

So as a practical response to an emotive situation why don't we do what Cumbria have done and organise a club first aid course?

And or invite jockey Sanderson over to talk about emergency scene management?

And perhaps discuss ways to improve club safety when flying - Radio etiquette and in flight comms etc?

Just a few thoughts from a comparatively inexperienced pilot who wouldn't even have got out of bed to fly in 29mph

Nor would I be turning up to watch

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:35 pm

berow wrote:Saturday was a day for experienced pilots, who are confident on launch. Ok Ron had a problem but he dealt with it. It was clearly a day for flying even though I was pinned at trim , I could go anywhere on speed bar. This is a very grey area almost like a black art, which it shouldn't be. For me, an easy launch from the beach, soaring high, great view, massive beach to land on and a full speed bar to play with. This was a situation where I drew from the bank of groundhandling! when I needed to make a withdrawal it was worth the saving up. So when its windy I am in a field somewhere on my own normally. Not lately though. Ok, it takes lots of practice but if you put the time in you will improve your opportunity to fly. Saturday was totally top end but if you put the practice in it was well flyable IMHO.

The video clearly shows that it certainly was not ok for flying, that's fact, no opinion. It takes no skil, no practice just very bad judgment.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:26 pm

the thing is strong wind ground handling in a big open field is fine and unlikely to every get you seriously injured, do the same flying and it will.

its fair to say generally the coast is smoother than inland flying yet got my biggest collapse ever at Haig pit 2012 lakes charity classic out the blue on the passion for no reason.

bill-scott · Post by **bill-scott** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:43 pm

So in reality the risk is that shit happens but that won't stop us flying and pushing on.

So as a practical response to an emotive situation why don't we do what Cumbria have done and organise a club first aid course?

And or invite jockey Sanderson over to talk about emergency scene management?

And perhaps discuss ways to improve club safety when flying - Radio etiquette and in flight comms etc?

"that's what i would do "

good post and interesting article, I think all of us who have this need to fly are a bit different in some way

I do have a hook knife but must confess its usually buried away in the bottom of my bag somewhere

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:54 pm

this is the formal report from one of are club members after high wind flying and then getting killed after been dragged through the stone wall.

not pleasant but does put a bit of a spin of what could of happened if Colin had not stopped the wing causing several friction burns.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:08 pm

Just out of curiosity do you guys who fly over water carry a hook-knife to cut your lines in case you get dumped?

Just been talking to Steve Giles about this very thing Graeme. We used to carry them all the time hang gliding gonna get one to put on me harness.

berow · Post by **berow** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:49 pm

Fingers.....do you fly?

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:21 pm

berow wrote:Fingers.....do you fly?

Gave up some time ago, risks not worth the reward. Seen too many accidents, having one myself lucky to walk away with just a shattered elbow, and way to many deaths. All down to pilot error.

AngusB · Post by **AngusB** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:52 pm

I'll start off on a light note, Opinions are like arseholes...everyone's got one.

When I'm out to fly I know I'm responsible for my safety but I always look out for others too...safety in numbers I guess. I like to think other pilots are doing the same for me just in case there's something I've missed or I'm having an off day. I also like to think that everyone is willing to accept help or advice whatever their level of flying ability...whether they choose to accept that help/advice is entirely up to them.

We have pilots in this club that are knowledgeable, confident, experienced & helpful, I totally understand if they want to take more risk with their level of ability...where would we be without these people? All of them have their level of comfort & make their own decisions on the day which makes them the pilots they are...clearly, even they can make mistakes from time to time & hopefully they learn from it as they walk away with only a bruised ego.

Sad Northerner · Post by **Sad Northerner** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:50 pm

Well put fella, I agree in total.

Ali

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:06 pm

Nice one Angus, positive Kama from me.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:37 pm

Looks to me for fear of offending, no one from the club dare stick there neck out and state a wind speed where its advisable for your health not to get the washing out.

Its all down to skill, experience and how much your willing to push your luck. Not much point in discussing safety then, possibly why there's never been any official reporting done.

29 mph is nuts, or at least it used to be. Have pg's performance increased that much?

Or am I missing some thing somewhere?

Post by **colin keightley** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:49 pm

My fear is that people are getting so tunnel visioned in getting the most out of any given day, that they are playing down or even disassociating themselves from the increased risk of doing so in conditions which are borderline dangerous. I understand people will do as they wish anyway, but im not sure everyone is being honest with themselves about what they are throwing themselves into. Now more experienced pilots maybe more well equipped to handle these conditions, but everyone makes mistakes and when you leave no margin for error those mistakes are going to hurt.

Luis Martinez Iturbe · Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:59 pm

This is nuts!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8A2kNQFCQs

but we are probably talking about the best pilot in the world. So what might seems nuts for some, might be safe for others. We are all grown ups here and should know what we do and what risks we are willing to take.

If you want a risk free sport, play chess.

But I do agree that sometimes we forget the risks involved within PG and unfortunately we need accidents to be reminded of it.

There is no limit on which wind is ok to take off and wich wind is not ok. The limit is set by ourselves with our own experience.

Personally, if I have doubts, I rather not to fly. But I'm nobody to stop anyone from flying if they wish so.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:18 pm

Nothing like a good pre flight check...........

One of the best pilots in the world?

He should be setting a better example then.

Twist in his lines there and in that wind he's dead.....Then how good is he

Just saying like.....................

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:38 pm

i think the meeting is a good place to continue this and as long as new member and novice pilots no what is not safe then that's fine.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:31 pm

So what might seems nuts for some, might be safe for others.

Base jumpers, wing suit jumpers and those Russians who like hanging from bridges and cranes say the same no doubt. Its all safe till shit happens and in paragliding it does, more than it should if new flyers come into a club where they see people flying in 29mph and the attitude is, ah its ok they can handle it. I recall a responsible club when people turning up at the hill with an ebay glider would be stopped from taking off.

Ps

As I recall these world comps involve many reserve pulls, never mind accidents and deaths.

Sad Northerner · Post by **Sad Northerner** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:11 pm

Steve

In response to your earlier post about max flying winds I feel that I, sadly, have to inform you that few flying decisions are that binary, (though I wish they were), nor can we tell people what to do. What we can do is try to arm people with the knowledge to make informed decisions and the skills to execute them as safely as possible; after this the choice is only theirs or the laws.

Ali

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:21 pm

So what wind speed would you suggest to someone as being unsafe to get the wing out Ali?

berow · Post by **berow** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:47 pm

Fingers..... Why are you asking Ali about wind strength. Why don't you enlighten us with your experience?

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:09 pm

Are you suggesting wind speed goes up the more experienced you are? If so please tell the beginner what this scale of wind speed is?

Is anyone prepared to suggest an unsafe wind speed, I feel sure the BHPA would have a figure to quote.

Of course anyone can do what they want, but what happened to looking out for one an other? This club has coaches that went on bhpa courses. Just guessing the safety on wind speeds would be mentioned. New flyers coming in from training deserve better than this. Has anyone studied the accident stats of the club over the years, are there more or less, I don't think anyone knows, and some that won't give a shite.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:18 pm

berow wrote:Fingers..... Why are you asking Ali about wind strength. Why don't you enlighten us with your experience?

Is it not ok to ask Ali about wind strength? Is it not ok the talk about wind strength with anyone? I mentioned wind strength, once but I think I got away with it.

Are you in politics?

Getting a straight answer here is not easy.

In my experience flying in 29 mph on the coast is folly and I would hope that everyone else in this club would agree. Do you think it is safe to fly in that wind of your a good pilot with experience?

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:47 am

read articles on true trim speed and top speed of gliders they are a lot slower top c-d wings at height maybe 50--53kph in clean air without any pitching. trim is supposed to be 37-39kph though at sea level try 35 so 29mph-46kph so basically there is no physical way of taken off at the top of the hill. also as you would gat to the back of the hill without bar you will be going backwards at 10kph at least. I would say absolute max at the top of the hill is 22mph this in flight will give you some margins but not a lot.

all I can say is I have seen at least 20 people being blown back at the coast including myself yet never at inland sites.

so answer is if someone runs down the hill saying its now 26-29mph the wind has picked so put your kit away.

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Attention November Meeting

Too windy