Cracking flight yesterday Ali
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John Wallis
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Cracking flight yesterday Ali
Livetrack24 wannyjollis
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
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Sad Northerner
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- Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:01 pm
- Location: Uganda
Cheers guys
Wasn't really that keen but Maltby (Mavric) bent my arm. Pleased I did as loitering under the cloud to Leyburn with him was great fun. I felt that the day was a little rough at times.
Ali
Wasn't really that keen but Maltby (Mavric) bent my arm. Pleased I did as loitering under the cloud to Leyburn with him was great fun. I felt that the day was a little rough at times.
Ali
He who feared he would not succeed sat still.
Do everything in moderation; except moderation which you should do to the MAX!!!
Do everything in moderation; except moderation which you should do to the MAX!!!
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Sad Northerner
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- Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:01 pm
- Location: Uganda
Firstly let me apologise as I feel that I've neglected my role as club coach over this summer; hopefully things will quieten down and I'll back on top of things again.
Your question is a tricky one to answer Graeme as the interpretation of flying conditions is so subjective. The day itself threw a mixture of conditions at us and interestingly neither myself nor my flying buddy (Mavric Maltby) were perturbed by the conditions that most flyers get spooked by; the big clouds and strong climbs. This is probably because Maltby and I have a lot of flying experience and have a few skills in terms of recognising dangerous clouds and dealing with the associated cloud suck etc. The fact that we were in the air together, in touch with radios and generally buzzed about getting away from the hill also helped us deal with the situation.
However, I've seen many newer pilots get really freaked by this situation. I would guess that this is because often it is a new experience, because of the additional stimulus (vario screaming and glider moving about etc) but generally because there is misconception between rough and strong conditions. don't get me wrong, dropping into a 8m thermal under a big cloud is definitely a rocky affair but it is so much more tangible and subsequently understandable and, in my case, once you know what's occurring you can you can prepare yourself and put measures in place to deal with it..... this reduces fear (well in my case anyway).
Oddly the bit that I found rough was later in the flight over an open piece of ground (no hills to create rotor) and with no clouds overhead and well from the sea air influence. I found the glider started to pitch and whereas this movement was probably less that earlier in the flight because I couldn't associate any reason for it it unnerved me somewhat.
I always find it interesting how we deal with different conditions in different ways I really struggle with soaring close to ridges but have heard of individuals who have been freaked at getting 'too high'. I really struggle on blue day's which are heavily inverted but seem to deal with big clouds no problem which again is adverse to the experience of others.
The best way to settle this is to fly together sometime and then exchange notes after....if i can get my finger out?
Ali
PS let me know if I'm talking shite
Your question is a tricky one to answer Graeme as the interpretation of flying conditions is so subjective. The day itself threw a mixture of conditions at us and interestingly neither myself nor my flying buddy (Mavric Maltby) were perturbed by the conditions that most flyers get spooked by; the big clouds and strong climbs. This is probably because Maltby and I have a lot of flying experience and have a few skills in terms of recognising dangerous clouds and dealing with the associated cloud suck etc. The fact that we were in the air together, in touch with radios and generally buzzed about getting away from the hill also helped us deal with the situation.
However, I've seen many newer pilots get really freaked by this situation. I would guess that this is because often it is a new experience, because of the additional stimulus (vario screaming and glider moving about etc) but generally because there is misconception between rough and strong conditions. don't get me wrong, dropping into a 8m thermal under a big cloud is definitely a rocky affair but it is so much more tangible and subsequently understandable and, in my case, once you know what's occurring you can you can prepare yourself and put measures in place to deal with it..... this reduces fear (well in my case anyway).
Oddly the bit that I found rough was later in the flight over an open piece of ground (no hills to create rotor) and with no clouds overhead and well from the sea air influence. I found the glider started to pitch and whereas this movement was probably less that earlier in the flight because I couldn't associate any reason for it it unnerved me somewhat.
I always find it interesting how we deal with different conditions in different ways I really struggle with soaring close to ridges but have heard of individuals who have been freaked at getting 'too high'. I really struggle on blue day's which are heavily inverted but seem to deal with big clouds no problem which again is adverse to the experience of others.
The best way to settle this is to fly together sometime and then exchange notes after....if i can get my finger out?
Ali
PS let me know if I'm talking shite
He who feared he would not succeed sat still.
Do everything in moderation; except moderation which you should do to the MAX!!!
Do everything in moderation; except moderation which you should do to the MAX!!!
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AngusB
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- Full Name: Angus Beardsmore
- Location: Washington
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Personally I think that's a good answer to a good question...I haven't got much experience of flying but I've had a few "oh bugger" moments where I've had to give myself a nip & tell myself to get a grip.
I'm on a new glider now & I'm finding it's a step backwards, not having as much confidence with the glider despite knowing I'm on a fantastic wing that can easily handle anything I throw at it...nip again & watch Security In Flight again.
Think I need to fly with you on radios again as I thought it was great during the LCC flight we had at Clough.
PS still got your chairs Ali, I'll take them to the BBQ if you're going.
I'm on a new glider now & I'm finding it's a step backwards, not having as much confidence with the glider despite knowing I'm on a fantastic wing that can easily handle anything I throw at it...nip again & watch Security In Flight again.
Think I need to fly with you on radios again as I thought it was great during the LCC flight we had at Clough.
PS still got your chairs Ali, I'll take them to the BBQ if you're going.
Angus Beardsmore
Nova Mentor 5
Livetrack24: AngusB
Nova Mentor 5
Livetrack24: AngusB
Thanks for that Ali - nice little read, makes sense and a couple of interesting points to consider.
I've overheard or read many post flight debriefs from new and experienced pilots alike saying ooo that was rough, or bumpy or strong! Or to a lesser extent - especially abroad - about how delightfully smooth and lifty a late afternoon early evening restitution flight has (or has not) been.
As you state all this individual subjectivity from chatty post flight pilots of all levels and experience can be confusing and difficult to compare and understand sometimes. I suppose it's the experience and subsequent tolerance factor of a pilot that is key to understanding the difference between benign 'rough', spooky 'rough' and dangerous 'rough'? Thinking about it the variables are almost never ending.
Either way - especially in uk - I've sort of given up the idea of a so called smooth flight and expect lots of random bumps, lumps and wobbles along the way as part and parcel of any flight really - and a good way to keep me on my toes - even warm smooth restitution flights still have their little moments.
Over the past couple of years mainly abroad I've experienced midday thermals, turbulent and sinky enough that they unexpectedly threw me around like a rag doll in my harness for what seemed like an eternity at the time - but I've lived to tell the tale : ).
I've also soared a few ridges in the Yorkshire dales during 'strong' plus 20ish conditions and although I was freezing my bollocks off in the mid winter cold - and with the odd exception - I feel comfortable enough with higher end ridge wind speeds.
But I've yet to find myself in a situation where I'm being sucked up by a big bad dangerous-rated cloud and being thrown around at the same time looking for my next climb whilst descending rapidly out of the suck : )? Or deciding if conditions are worsening so much so that it's time to find a landing field quickly - or to push on.... Or combining all the above into a single A to B XC flight where the decision making process is constantly changing.
First thing I need to do is let it rock and throw myself into an xc flight asap and learn more about a bit of 'rough' from there. Unfortunately for me I'm a 9-5 Mon-Fri slave for the time being and the trouble is finding a window of opportunity to make that step on an xc flight with you and or the other club coaches.
It's reassuring to read you and Andrew feel more reassured yourselves and confident on a challenging flight when in radio contact with each other. If I'm honest at this stage in my development I'd find that reassuring too - even on an easy benign conditions xc flight.
But I've enough faith in my emerging skills, knowledge and intuition now - and my low end B xc Nova glider - to give it a go now and would love the chance to try and follow you or any XC coach when availability and conditions allow. Post flight pint would be on me and I can't think of a better way of compare respective interpretation of 'rough'.
I've overheard or read many post flight debriefs from new and experienced pilots alike saying ooo that was rough, or bumpy or strong! Or to a lesser extent - especially abroad - about how delightfully smooth and lifty a late afternoon early evening restitution flight has (or has not) been.
As you state all this individual subjectivity from chatty post flight pilots of all levels and experience can be confusing and difficult to compare and understand sometimes. I suppose it's the experience and subsequent tolerance factor of a pilot that is key to understanding the difference between benign 'rough', spooky 'rough' and dangerous 'rough'? Thinking about it the variables are almost never ending.
Either way - especially in uk - I've sort of given up the idea of a so called smooth flight and expect lots of random bumps, lumps and wobbles along the way as part and parcel of any flight really - and a good way to keep me on my toes - even warm smooth restitution flights still have their little moments.
Over the past couple of years mainly abroad I've experienced midday thermals, turbulent and sinky enough that they unexpectedly threw me around like a rag doll in my harness for what seemed like an eternity at the time - but I've lived to tell the tale : ).
I've also soared a few ridges in the Yorkshire dales during 'strong' plus 20ish conditions and although I was freezing my bollocks off in the mid winter cold - and with the odd exception - I feel comfortable enough with higher end ridge wind speeds.
But I've yet to find myself in a situation where I'm being sucked up by a big bad dangerous-rated cloud and being thrown around at the same time looking for my next climb whilst descending rapidly out of the suck : )? Or deciding if conditions are worsening so much so that it's time to find a landing field quickly - or to push on.... Or combining all the above into a single A to B XC flight where the decision making process is constantly changing.
First thing I need to do is let it rock and throw myself into an xc flight asap and learn more about a bit of 'rough' from there. Unfortunately for me I'm a 9-5 Mon-Fri slave for the time being and the trouble is finding a window of opportunity to make that step on an xc flight with you and or the other club coaches.
It's reassuring to read you and Andrew feel more reassured yourselves and confident on a challenging flight when in radio contact with each other. If I'm honest at this stage in my development I'd find that reassuring too - even on an easy benign conditions xc flight.
But I've enough faith in my emerging skills, knowledge and intuition now - and my low end B xc Nova glider - to give it a go now and would love the chance to try and follow you or any XC coach when availability and conditions allow. Post flight pint would be on me and I can't think of a better way of compare respective interpretation of 'rough'.
07879215524
Livetrack Graeme52
Flying for Fun Only.
Livetrack Graeme52
Flying for Fun Only.
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John Wallis
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- Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:17 pm
- Location: Northumberland
Good post this and I'm sure these are questions many pilots have asked themselves over the years.
My rule of thumb is when there's a low pressure system beware of big clouds these are the boys that will suck you up and can be dangerous.
High pressure = Good and usually safe the lift should and usually does decrease as you approach cloud base.
The stronger the wind the worse the turbulence usually.
Springtime strong thermals be on your guard.
My rule of thumb is when there's a low pressure system beware of big clouds these are the boys that will suck you up and can be dangerous.
High pressure = Good and usually safe the lift should and usually does decrease as you approach cloud base.
The stronger the wind the worse the turbulence usually.
Springtime strong thermals be on your guard.
Livetrack24 wannyjollis
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
Cheers John nice summary which I'll copy and paste into my head. With regards spring thermals - I've heard a lot about them, I think I've flown in some in Vejer, Spain earlier this year (a flight that ended abruptly when I was blown back over the ridge at low altitude and dumped by rotor - it took me an hour and a half to untangle my lines from an olive tree) - but i am told this was caused by Venturi from a gulley.John Wallis wrote:Good post this and I'm sure these are questions many pilots have asked themselves over the years.
My rule of thumb is when there's a low pressure system beware of big clouds these are the boys that will suck you up and can be dangerous.
High pressure = Good and usually safe the lift should and usually does decrease as you approach cloud base.
The stronger the wind the worse the turbulence usually.
Springtime strong thermals be on your guard.
I've also been grounded by my instructor in the Yorkshire dales on a couple of occasions because of the danger of spring thermals - even though he happliy took to the sky and flew around for an hour or more having a whale of a time.
I've just been trying to find something to read up on and revise exactly what the dangers are are with spring thermals but a definitive guide is difficult to find.
I expect them to be fast moving small, maybe skinny bubbles of warm air rising rapidly and randomly (like the wax in an overheated lava lamp) but surrounded by colder sinking air causing sheer thus increasing risk of AS deflations? Maybe you can tell me tonight over a bottle and a burger: )
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Livetrack Graeme52
Flying for Fun Only.
Livetrack Graeme52
Flying for Fun Only.
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John Wallis
- Seasoned
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- Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:17 pm
- Location: Northumberland
It's to do with the strong sun but cold air in the spring which gives a good lapse rate.I've just been trying to find something to read up on and revise exactly what the dangers are are with spring thermals but a definitive guide is difficult to find.
Do an SIV course with Liam unless he's gone now? I'm not a great fan of SIV courses but you will cover every eventuality found in most thermal conditions and how to recover from them.
I'm supposed to be working see you tonight
Livetrack24 wannyjollis
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
Graeme...........give us a shout any weekend when you are in the lakes and want to try some of the milk runs (easy XC routes)
chrislittle312@aol.com or call/text 07966 153668
chrislittle312@aol.com or call/text 07966 153668
Feel the fear and do it anyway!