What do the, Members think of this for our club comps ?

[RonDon]

From another club.

We have our EN-A and B class here and call it FUN Class. Its always been intended for novice XC pilots and its been around for over 15yrs now.

In order to overcome the obvious "fairness" sporting issue you noted we limit the class to pilots with <100hrs XC experience.

That way the pilots who are really Intermediate XC skilled pilots flying typically a C or a glider with C like flying qualities (ie a hot EN-B) are not included. If they want to fly a B certification shackled C (like those you noted), they are not in the FUN class but rightly compete against pilots of similar skill level in our SPORT Class (with a max of EN-C).

Keeps everyone happy as the line is well known.

I recently introduced a logical break in the D class to allow for the differences we see there too - D-XC (or classic) and D-Comp (2 liners).

Re the cert itself and the impression it gives to the market/consumers ...its a minefield.

The Germans break down the B and other classes into subgroups already - a bit like when we say "mid range" or "classic" B as opposed to a "hot B". The delineations are grey and change over time. I note that this issue existed in the 90's, naughty's and now- its not new, only the performance (esp speed) and aspect ratio's, and thus the subsequent pilot skill demands in extreme situations have changed significantly.

Currently the onus is on the manufacturers and dealers to clearly state the intended pilot level for each glider and where it slots into their range etc.. not so easy to keep it real there when dealer $$'s and pilot ego's come into the equation.

cheers

[AngusB]

Sounds like a good idea to me Ron
I wouldn't want to compete with the likes of Eddie Davies on the same level of glider so the <100 hours thing would keep it a fairly level playing field.
Would like to know what others think but I'm in.

[colin keightley]

Are you volunteering to keep track of pilots and scores rondon

[RonDon]

If need be, Colion. I take it.not your good self. But first things first,what do you think of having a level playing field. Getting everyone in the club a chance to pick up a pries.

[Graeme]

I fit into <100hrs XC novice class quite comfortably : ) and fly a low end B (Ion2 light).

But I'm hoping to push on this year and get as much airtime as possible. Winning a comp for doing that would be a bonus!

Count me in too

[gary stenhouse]

5 years ago we would have about 30 different people with entries on are xc leaugue now even though we have more folk than ever with gps's there is only 7. I think there is so few people doing xc in the club that there would be very little point.

we do have a EN B class already but think that this is a big open field also have the most improved pilot so this gives the up and coming a good chance.

it is proved now that in the UK EN B AND C are wining the national league so the difference is very small.

I think this year there was five different people that got trophies so there was quite a good spread of people getting trophies

cheers gary

[colin keightley]

If need be, Colion. I take it.not your good self.

Not for me on this occassion Ron, its a minefield, not only is it awkward to keep track of in the league but also when all the pilots are intertwined on the league quite oftenly different people read the results differently. And I just dont have the time.

[John Wallis]

I would just love to get airborne this year never mind XC or compete. After a gorgeous week the weekend comes and it's shite yet again.

I agree with Gary I think there's a wide enough spread of trophies to cover most classes of pilot as it is, not sure there's enough demand for more?

Plus as Ronnie our club CFI pointed out at the last meeting you shouldn't be thinking of going XC if you are not pilot rated (I know many are)

What you don't want is a non qualified pilot hitting lucky on a great XC day and flying through the middle of Newcastle Teeside Edinburgh Otterburn Spadeadam Warcop or any other local airspace.

Having said all that Competition is a great way to learn and improve your ability and hone your skills. Getting involved with the club competition is a great way to get started ( And we know how hard they are to get off the ground)

[chrisfozz]

slightly off topic but I don't see a problem with cp rated pilots flying xc if the know where they are going and what they are doing. I'd say if they are flying xc they should be thinking about getting pilot rated.

on the original subject of the post; there are some new EN B wings around which should not, in my opinion, be scored in our comp for this category.

[ron freeman]

Our XC league seems to work fine the way it is.

Depending on what type of E.N. glider you are flying the club can make a small adjustment say, 5 or 10 % of your total score to bring everyone into line due to wing performance.

CP's going XC... the BHPA made an agreement with the C.A.A. many years ago that the minimum requirement for flying cross country due to civil & military airspace pilots must have enough knowledge to deal with airspace.

The "Pilot rated" exam covers that requirement and level of knowledge the Club pilot exam does not.

Its a difficult one to approach within our club but if you do get caught by the CAA they will probably give you a 12 month caution if there was no accident..

If one of their officers is having a bad day they could fine you and take all of your equipment and ask you to go back to school and re-sit for your flying licence. (BHPA insurance)

As long as you know the airspace areas the chances of getting caught is pretty slim until.. you download your XC flight on our web site

Best to do the pilot exam and fly with a clear head + insurance

[John Wallis]

slightly off topic but I don't see a problem with cp rated pilots flying xc if the know where they are going and what they are doing.

Hi Chris do you remember that hang glider pilot called John Tewson He joined our club after he left the Peak District?

He took off Lords seat on the same day Gordon Rigg broke the British XC record John flew 105miles on his Ace Sport and he'd never been XC before or since as far as I know. I can't remember if it was Manchester airspace he busted or somewhere further south or both.

Like you say as long as they know where they are and land before they infringe I can't see the harm in it. Ronnie might have a different view.

[chrisfozz]

According to the CAA "Foot Launched Powered Hang-gliders and Para-gliders (that meet certain criteria) and Unpowered Hang-gliders and Para-gliders do not require a licence from the CAA. " so it's hard to see what difference it makes to them if you're cp, p, ap or not rated at all.

[ron freeman]

Quite right Chris, you don't need a licence to fly the above but where would our sports be if pilots were not trained to a certain standard..

The CAA would step in and take over the running our sport and that sounds expensive..

Best to support the BHPA under the auspecies of the C.A.A. and make good use of the approved pilot rating system so everyone can enjoy this beautiful sport of ours.

[gary stenhouse]

just done a break down of the difference since 2005 xc leugue and where have all the members gone?
2005 = 5 entries
2006= 21 entries
2007= 30 entries
2008= 33 entries
2009= 32 entries
2010= 22 entries
2011= 13 entries
2012= 12 entries
2013= 17 entries

so as you can see as the xc leugue was introduced it brought a huge surge in people keen and upload there flights, and now it seems the club has shrunk considerably.

[chrisfozz]

The issue was about cp's flying xc's, telling people they will get warnings, have their gear confiscated or get sent back to school if they don't have the right rating is incorrect and won't, in my opinion, do anything to encourage pilots to progress through the BHPA system. The people who prosecute airspace infringements, the CAA, will treat offenders the same whatever BHPA badge they have on their arm.

[John Wallis]

Hi John

Please check Page 4 of the Elementary Training Guide, on the left hand side of the home page of the BHPA website.

The Pilot Rating Scheme (PRS)
The BHPA Pilot Rating Scheme has been devised to
encourage pilots to progress their personal flying
skills and to provide a quick and simple means of
indicating their proficiency level to others. There is
one 'progress award’ for you to complete, and then
three 'ratings’ proper.
• Elementary Pilot award (EP) Awarded by your
school during your training to mark the
successful completion of the introductory stage,
and to indicate your suitability to undertake the
further school training required to gain your
first rating.
• Club Pilot (Novice) Marks the end of your
formal instruction and qualifies you to leave
the school and fly within BHPA member clubs.
Still a relative novice, as you continue to perfect
your skills you should seek advice and
guidance from Coaches while you work
towards your Pilot rating.
• Pilot (P) Now you can consider yourself a fully qualified
pilot in the true sense of the word. You
will possess well-rounded skills and abilities,
along with enough experience to know how and
when to exercise them! You should hold this
rating before embarking on cross-country flights.
• Advanced Pilot (AP) A rating for the above average
pilot who is a total master of his or her
craft and enjoying to the full the challenges the
sport can offer.

You will see that it is perfectly clear that Pilot is the level that should be obtained before setting off XC (It is impossible to have the skill to fly XC, and not have the skill required to hold a Pilot Rating - so the only potential gap is in the Pilot's theoretical knowledge. If the pilot doesn't have the theoretical knowledge then he shouldn't leave the ridge and start jeopardising other air users. If he does have the knowledge, then it takes less than an hour to prove it by passing the exam.


Cheers
Mark

[ron freeman]

Chris, the reality is.. as a club we can't turn a blind eye to Club pilots flying XC so my post are purely intended to make them aware of the situation they put themselves in.

There has been hg, powered hg, pg, paramotors caught and prosecuted by the C.A.A. so I would not want this to happen to anyone in our club.

The Pilot rated exam will only take a few nights study, Ali Guthrie has tried in the past to push this along but not many are going for it.

We also have a quite few pilots in the club who are well capable of achieving the advance pilot rating and that would be great to have in the club.

[chrisfozz]

Don’t get me wrong I’m not anti BHPA or against the pilot rating system but the idea that your not competent to fly xc then you pass an exam and you suddenly are just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. In any event, experience has hown that passing the exam doesn't actually prevent pilots from making cockups but good preparation, planning and being able to navigate does. I'm not suggesting that new cp's should be flying xc's but when pilots are confident in their skills and ability I think they will continue to exercise some common sense in relation to the BHPA rules and they won't be put off by bogey man stories.

[colin keightley]

It has been said that if you are CP rated and you have busted airspace and it is brought to the attention of the CAA then you could feel their full weight, but the same goes for a pilot rated flyer, it doesn't make it ok to bust airspace.

I think the lesson you should be teaching here is that the BHPA frowns upon XC before you get you're p rating.
If you insist on flying XC while still CP brush up on you're map skills and your airspace.
Try to avoid flying over and under restricted airspace until you have plenty of XC experience (this goes for p rated flyers also).
The focus shouldn't be on the possible repurcusions but to keep the pilot safe.