its getting closer ron then the sky will be the limit

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:32 pm

http://www.charly-produkte.de/en/thermic-beamer.html

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:44 am

Matches the new Mentor 2 perfectly, when is it arriving?

At last we'll be able to prove Wallace wrong and get good xc flights from the Cheviots!

See you at TP

Stuart Bertram · Post by **Stuart Bertram** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:11 am

did we not look at this a few months ago?

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:47 am

At last we'll be able to prove Wallace wrong and get good xc flights from the Cheviots!

You would need a rocket strapped to your arse to achive that Brian

RichardC · Post by **RichardC** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:49 am

Does it come with 5 sets of spare lines

milleboy · Post by **milleboy** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:18 pm

And a spare fingers.

No cage scares me more than spiders, or the dark, or spiders in the dark.

Graeme Gilroy · Post by **Graeme Gilroy** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:28 pm

If this charly is as good as it's cracked up to be I would imagine the Market for second hand petrol motors is gonna mean much lower prices so now is the time to move em on . Good news is there are gonna be some bargains to be had !

milleboy · Post by **milleboy** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:37 pm

Not so sure.....1/2 run time will limit the market. Great for getting up once or a low save, but not so good if you want to paramotor.

Don't see a massive drop in price of used used cars as people move over to electic ones!

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:53 pm

You would need a rocket strapped to your arse to achive that Brian

Top Gear have already tried that John,,,,,,,just as you would suspect,,,,,,,,a total flop,,,,just a damn great hole in the ground 200m from take off,,,,it went up,,,,it came down.

They were trying to fly a 3 wheel 'Trotter van' though.

GlennP · Post by **GlennP** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:16 am

I posted 2 links to this and the Skywalk eWalk last month.

http://www.nhpc.org.uk/nhpc/viewtopic.php?t=6495

The big problem with these is the cost! You could buy a new car for the price of the Charly or eWalk.

Flight time is 40min with a full charge or so I've been told.

Given the option of a flop to bottom with a 1hr walk up on a nil wind day and a flight on one of these 2 (if I had a spare £6000 in my back pocket) I know what I'd choose.
And that is where these products are aimed. For people who don't live that close to good hill sites and have access to a local field for takeoff.

I don't see a major crossover between paramotoring and paragliding and these Electric PG packs are aimed at Freeflyers not at PPGers. So I wouldn't think there will be loads of Baileys going for a song on eBay anytime soon. Plus there are already 3 or 4 Electric PPGs (with cages) on the market from established PPG manufacturers with the same limited range.

http://yuneeccouk.site.securepod.com/paramotor.html

The Electric PG pack needs to be thought of as a 'personalised winch tow' to get you up to connect with thermals, power off, prop folds and you have minimal drag, the harness is the same PG type for weightshift etc so you fly the same in thermic air as you would with no electric power.

By the way all this talk of losing fingers etc. Total crap if you're wearing the harness. You cant reach the prop with the harness on, there's also a field sensor to stop the motor immediately should anything go past the pilot in the direction of the prop. Oh and they also have a small cage for the accident prone.

GlennP · Post by **GlennP** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:19 am

Nevermind fingers being cut off I suspect you could dismember yourself on this interesting contraption.

http://www.electricppg.com/index.htm

milleboy · Post by **milleboy** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:50 am

Glenn...if it's total crap about the concerns of an ungarded prop how come there have been a number of horrific accidents with caged paramotors already? Usually bystanders

Don't want to sound like someones dad, but uncaged paramotors, petrol or electric are a bad idea.......

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:12 pm

all interesting stuff but how efective in real life turbulent flying with colapses etc could prove interesting. the thing is in real life most ppg pilots fly in non thermic conditions. so add strong thermals turbulance and a few collapses and all of a sudden the 1m rod on your bacl might get caught up in a twist. its all about where you live and what the thermal activity is, to make it worth your while. i have seen how dificult launching a ppg can be in light to zero wind, so add weight and just enough power and you may find not quite the machine your hoping for.

however i will reserve my judement untill these become true reality, as i think the truth is elecric is no lighter then petrol and has just as many problems.

cheers gary

GlennP · Post by **GlennP** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:02 am

Glenn...if it's total crap about the concerns of an ungarded prop how come there have been a number of horrific accidents with caged paramotors already? Usually bystanders

Don't want to sound like someones dad, but uncaged paramotors, petrol or electric are a bad idea.......

I've not been in paragliding that long but have been a member of the BMAA since 1999 who until a few years back administered (jointly) all aspects of paramotoring. I can't recall 'numbers of horriffic accidents" (bystanders) appearing in the accident reports I got every month.

Do a quick search of the AAIB website and you won't find "numbers of horrific accidents" (bystanders/propstrikes) there either.

In effect what you were saying was paramotors with cages are dangerous as are paramotors without cages. ????????

milleboy · Post by **milleboy** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:22 am

I'll bow to your superior knowledge then.........I was incorrect to say having an unguarded prop is in any way a danger, they are completely safe. I imagined those accidents.

Have a happy 2011!

Stuart Bertram · Post by **Stuart Bertram** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:41 am

LOL Steve
Guess who got diplomacy lessons for Christmas!
Love it

gordie · Post by **gordie** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:47 pm

Yeer Steve I second what your saying. I'm sure Mark from ukairsports thinks the same, as he is soon to loose a little finger after a 15 year battle to keep it after a disagreement with a paramotor.

Happy new year you all xxx

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:45 pm

There are many accidents & incidents that don't get reported !

Just look at the accidents in our club in the past two years not many have been filed or reported to the BHPA..

The electric paramotor does look very good but for obvious reasons it should be flown with a cage until you become familiar with 'POWERED' flying and make sure your ground handling skills are tip top (fingers,hands & legs are precious)

GlennP · Post by **GlennP** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:21 am

Please tell us all about those "number" of accidents Steve.

No , seriously! As Ron says these accidents are going unreported and we can all learn from others mishaps.

So what I suggest is you type up a report in the Accidents and Incidents section to provide us all with your vast knowledge of powered flight accidents.

As a respected forum member I would expect nothing less.

All the best for 2011 and safe powered flying to everyone.

milleboy · Post by **milleboy** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:36 pm

Glenn, with all due respect, I really don't feel the need to defend my view that unguarded paramotor props are a bad idea.
Surely it's the other way around?

A quick scan here
http://www.bhpa.co.uk/members/safety/in ... filter=PPG
show a number of accident involving caged props, I cannot see how removing the cage is going to improve safety.

Also more comment here:
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=34780

And for your info I'm not a full forum member so cannot see or post in the accident section.

Take care up there in 2011

RichardC · Post by **RichardC** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:32 pm

Steve I'm with you. They all frighten the sh*t out of me, caged or not.

Particularly when operated by uninsured people "training" on busy sites near members of the public. Got that off my chest

I've got it, fit it with a 10M long prop and I'd have a go. Maybe you could have it underslung and have it 10M in front of you?

Have a good 2011 all, including PPG pilots out there.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:16 pm

Fear of the unknown? Or a bunch of softies? The idea is not to be flying busy sites but to be able to take of from a good flat plain or near a thermal source. There is no real danger to the pilot but a serious threat to others so would need to be used in a strict area with no potential bystanders or animals. However unless you have a slope I think the real chances of easy stress free take offs will not bebthat easy ask glen about the rad very little power on a gin bolero. It is not easy unless you have wind or a slope and the north east is not that good a spot. However if I lived in the vale of Lincoln area or someplace in the south then possibly. Will I get one of course I will if I could test fly it first. However if it weighsnmore than 20kg then may as well use the mini plane and no cage. I still think there is a long way to go as it will only work if you are in an area with regular thermal source as the 20minute flight time I would say is exagerated and 10to15will be nearer the mark and that is not long unless you find lift.

I do wish them goodnluck

Cheers Gary

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:06 pm

Lions and tigers uncaged. danger tell that to the locals. It's all about perception not risk. Should we level tall things in case someone falls off?

Kay · Post by **Kay** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:05 pm

Neil...Whats happened to your Boobs !..There not bouncing

GlennP · Post by **GlennP** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:21 pm

This whole paramotoring maiming innocent bystanders thing is an URBAN MYTH.

There are people worried about paramotors (usually commited freeflyers)who know a mate of a mate who's auntie Bessies daughter's friend thinks she saw someone cut in half by a paramotor or it could have been a lawnmower she's not sure coz she's half blind and has a tendency to lie a bit.

I read the link Steve. Not a single innocent bystander mentioned. Granted a couple of fingers missing of PPG pilots but only 3 of about 20 reports going back over a 10 year period were such. One of those was a fella doing engine maintenance with the friggin motor running at home?????Muppet!!!! I bet he jacks his car up with the hadbrake off and no chocks...

I'm sure if these "numbers" of innocent bystanders had been hit by a paramotorist or his prop just one call to an ambulance chasing lawyer would have reaped a large wad £££££££ as a payout and the BHPA would stop insuring PPGers for 3rd party due to the costs. Since that hasn't happened I doubt there are that many 3rd party claims.

Look at the stats for PG and PPG. How many killed or injured last year in PG? PPG? One high profile 3rd party case was a paraglider taking out a pedestrian and ending up in court at the request of the CAA.

I wasn't trying to upset you Steve. Props CAN be dangerous whether they are on paramotors, light aircraft, gyrocopters, model aircraft, Heli rotors etc. But the point you seemed to be making was that PPGers are regularly endangering the life of "innocent bystanders", the accident reports and BHPA/BMAA/CAA?AAIB statistics must have missed something if that is the case.

I personally know of 2 people maimed in Oz trying to hand swing a prop on a light aircraft. One hand missing, one arm cut off at the shoulder. There again I used to own a plane with no electric start and no one in the group ever hurt themselves in the 4 years I had my share.

Gary the Rad is a bugger to get of in nil wind (as you will probably testify to) as I have found out which is why it got binned. 2 broken props and I'd had enough. Including a patch on my old Bolero where a bit of prop damaged the cloth.

As for PPGers on busy sites I think RichardC might be refering to Model (could be wrong though) which is owned by John ( though he might have sold it since) and HE invites the PPGers. We've had all this nonsense in the past about upsetting the woman at the bottom and it was found to be untrue.

It would be best if no PPGers flew at PG sites but it's the LANDOWNERS perogative not those who simply turn up and fly there occasionally. So if he says it's OK who else has the right to pee on their bonfire?

There's some dyed in the wool freeflyers who would like to see the end of PPGing.

milleboy · Post by **milleboy** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:07 pm

Glenn it cannot be an urban myth since I know (and you possibly know as well) one Cumbria pilot who has been badly hurt assisting a ppg launch.

Sorry but as you point out props are dangerous, there have been accidents to both pilots and assisters over the years. Though the word "usually" should have been swapped for "occasionally" in my post.

I think cageless motors are a step too far, yet my comment about fingers in props is "total crap" according to your post. It was this that got my back up!
I have nothing against powered flight what so ever........it's not my cup of tea but I would be the 1st to defend pilots right to do it. I also do not think it's particularly risky (to either the public or the pilot). I DO however think cageless is a step to far......(however as a supplier of linesets it will possibly be profitable

)

Hope that helps to clarify things

Steve

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:59 pm

Glenn, if there is an accident sadly John will kick us all off !

Its all about attitude to airmanship and this site is not suitable in anyway for powered HG / PG especially when the club is soaring Carlton or Model.

If the cafe disappeared tomorrow the free flyers would still be there...

alan westmoreland · Post by **alan westmoreland** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:48 pm

As a regular powered hangglider, i must add that i have never had a problem with prop, nor have i heard of many accidents/incidents involving them. Anyway, i can say that model is a perfectly fine for powered flying, (providing everyone follows the airlaws) permission from landowner, perfect, nice take off, plenty of bomb out and great for landing, what more could you ask for?
I must state the only problem i have every had at model was that i took off for a flight and there were about 7 or 8 people present, however, when i returned there was around 70 to 80 have a picnic party right on my landing site!!!

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:31 pm

Like I said Alan, The cafe attracts lots of public for this alone its not suitable... as for bomb out areas.. its not ! we should either land on the top of model or the official landing area at the bottom..

If you have a power failure on take off you may not make a full circuit to land back on top of Model and due to drag from the prop you also may not make the bottom landing areas.. (unhappy farmer)

To me the idea of power is negotiate a flat field close to where you live (unless you live inside airspace !) and enjoy with out the worry of lots of spectators.

I love to go free flying at Model ridge but have decided many times the place is just to busy now with hikers, lots of spectators, powered flying, free flying, jam packed car park ! and all queing for the cafe... not my idea of flying.

alan westmoreland · Post by **alan westmoreland** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:19 pm

Ron, i am not talking about numb nut pilots that have not got a clue, I am referring to BHPA members that are supposed to be qualified, and have a little bit of common sense.

As i said, permission to fly, that's me legal, good take off and if pilots cannot judge glide angles, if their engine stops then they need to go back to school.

Landing at the bottom of a hill on an official site meant a fiver had to be paid to the farmer the last i heard, so that's one HAPPY LANDOWNER in my book.

As for landing at Model Ridge, if you havent got the confidence or the ability then yes, you probably should divertas there are plenty of options without upsetting others or farmers.

Once in the air, your legal and just the same as everyone else, i can't see a problem as most powered pilots fly away from the site.

NHPC Private and Public Forum

its getting closer ron then the sky will be the limit

its getting closer ron then the sky will be the limit

Petrol power versus electric

Charley Electric

Electrics

paramotors

All forgetting...

fingers

Scarmonger no back up facts urban myths aligatot in sewers

Model ridge

perfect ?