Now here's a question for all you budding XC hounds
Moderator: Club Moderators
Now here's a question for all you budding XC hounds
I've read and listened with interest over the past few weeks to comments from experienced pilots about decision making in the air. From my feeble, look at the shadows on the ground, to only fly the sky, to Kitt's (he must be a woman, only they can multi-task) do everything while knitting and reading Skywings and Misk's listen to a soothing voice on the internet.
So here's the question..... look at Ed's picture of his flight;
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/aeros135/ ... 7203831906
Now if you've been over the back at XFell, use your experience and describe your next move. If you haven't, take a look at an air map and make your guess.
Don't be shy, have a go.
I've been in a similar situation before and was on the ground another 10k on, I know there was another pilot, on the same day who was a lot lower who was on the ground another 30k further on.
It's all down to experience, so grab what you can while you are sitting at a computer and not when you are on the ground 10k further on than Alston......It's my landing field and the one in Garrigill, I charge landing fees!
So here's the question..... look at Ed's picture of his flight;
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/aeros135/ ... 7203831906
Now if you've been over the back at XFell, use your experience and describe your next move. If you haven't, take a look at an air map and make your guess.
Don't be shy, have a go.
I've been in a similar situation before and was on the ground another 10k on, I know there was another pilot, on the same day who was a lot lower who was on the ground another 30k further on.
It's all down to experience, so grab what you can while you are sitting at a computer and not when you are on the ground 10k further on than Alston......It's my landing field and the one in Garrigill, I charge landing fees!
See you out there!!!!!
Surf crazed and dazed
Livetrack24 Nezzy01
Surf crazed and dazed
Livetrack24 Nezzy01
- gary stenhouse
- Superstar
- Posts: 6288
- Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:21 pm
- Full Name: Gary Stenhouse
- Location: Company Director
i think the whole lot is a load of poop and the lord is either good to you or bad. the only things you need is a bit of skill to get up there loads of skill to be on the ground in 10k and lots of bad luck.
the truth is practice and patience and lots of trying, we all see the special formulas but i realy think most people aquire the skill by the seat of there pants and actualy could not explain that well how they consistantly do it. what i would say is that patience is the key and not getting to anctious at base. do them two things and you are likely to fly further. start shiting it at base and your doun on the ground.
the other is you can only compare on the day on the same hill to see who is always using there skill and not just luck. being on the right hill helps but just because you fly a 100k from an easy site on a easy day does not say you are better than the person flying shity hills in shity conditions and going the furthest on that hill.
ther is no quick route to xc as unless you dont work you never get enough time to practice after all kit mike cav ali ed and most of the others have been flying pgs for 15 years plus
cheers gary
the truth is practice and patience and lots of trying, we all see the special formulas but i realy think most people aquire the skill by the seat of there pants and actualy could not explain that well how they consistantly do it. what i would say is that patience is the key and not getting to anctious at base. do them two things and you are likely to fly further. start shiting it at base and your doun on the ground.
the other is you can only compare on the day on the same hill to see who is always using there skill and not just luck. being on the right hill helps but just because you fly a 100k from an easy site on a easy day does not say you are better than the person flying shity hills in shity conditions and going the furthest on that hill.
ther is no quick route to xc as unless you dont work you never get enough time to practice after all kit mike cav ali ed and most of the others have been flying pgs for 15 years plus
cheers gary
If you want the distances the best thing you can do is learn to predict the best hill for the day. Then tell Gary where it is and get him to drive you there. You'll get it wrong occasionally, you'll bomb out at 20 km occasionally but to learn XC you have to just keep trying. You've all got the skills to fly 50 km+ but you regularly need to be where the conditions are and on hills that produce the goods (and are proven to!).
If you have limited time off you can't wait for the conditions to come to your local hills you have to go to them.
Keep the faith, keep the dedication going and travel with folk who are wanting to go XC and not on a timetable to get home and this year your biggest problem will be hitching back.......
If you have limited time off you can't wait for the conditions to come to your local hills you have to go to them.
Keep the faith, keep the dedication going and travel with folk who are wanting to go XC and not on a timetable to get home and this year your biggest problem will be hitching back.......
- Bradleisure
- Chatty
- Posts: 423
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:53 pm
Now I'm no XC god though if you check my next move from rather lower down....
Track log - http://www.nhpc.org.uk/nhpc/modules.php ... ghtID=5215
About 14:36:30
There's a pylon you can't see as well as the town and trees that you can and the convergence Ed's already mentioned.
The stuff you read really does work, sometimes!
Think the best thing is to believe and you will achieve!
AND MOST IMPORTANT JUST ENJOY PASSING OVER THE COUNTRYSIDE AND SKIRTING THE CLOUDS NOT COUNTING THE KM.
Track log - http://www.nhpc.org.uk/nhpc/modules.php ... ghtID=5215
About 14:36:30
There's a pylon you can't see as well as the town and trees that you can and the convergence Ed's already mentioned.
The stuff you read really does work, sometimes!
Think the best thing is to believe and you will achieve!
AND MOST IMPORTANT JUST ENJOY PASSING OVER THE COUNTRYSIDE AND SKIRTING THE CLOUDS NOT COUNTING THE KM.
Last edited by Bradleisure on Thu May 20, 2010 11:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
Fly Safe & Fly Far
-
- Regular
- Posts: 518
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:55 pm
- Full Name: Graeme Gilroy
- Location: newcastle formerly of Murton
next move
personally from a green as grass point of view and once id stopped shitting myself and gotten over the shock that id gotten even that far. i honestly would not have the foggiest idea which way to go, but hey thats why im reading this to learn something from you guys, so come on answer the question for brian and all us near virgins
cheers
cheers
it's a fine line between heaven and here
- Bradleisure
- Chatty
- Posts: 423
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:53 pm
Ed has very kindly shared his flight here
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/leonardo/flight/328531
And mine is here
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/leonardo/flight/328490
Cav hasn't got his up yet but hopefully will.
This has more info than from our system, though not sure why Eds won't let me view the most detailed (Voodoo).
What I normally do is chuck them on google earth and study.............
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/leonardo/flight/328531
And mine is here
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/leonardo/flight/328490
Cav hasn't got his up yet but hopefully will.
This has more info than from our system, though not sure why Eds won't let me view the most detailed (Voodoo).
What I normally do is chuck them on google earth and study.............
Fly Safe & Fly Far
- Bradleisure
- Chatty
- Posts: 423
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:53 pm
- colin keightley
- BHPA Club Coach
- Posts: 2483
- Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:22 pm
- Full Name: Colin Keightley
- Location: Stockton
- Contact:
Well its a good question Brian. If for nothing else to make you (me ) stop and think..Tho it does tend to result in me feeling more of a flying Dunce than ever
However.... Crossfell in particular, a great catapult of any XC seems to be (tho not the only way) to get your self over to and into the Mellmerby Bowl.
From there you widen your options ..using the shape of the bowl and the nice little cliffs from there you can find the optimum point along its length where the wind / thermals are coming bang up the face . Here..(by the way I am talking from VVVVV limited experience) is the place to fairly reliably get good height. On the few occasions I have ventured over the Back I have always GONE TO SOON and as a result put my self into what I have always assumed is decending air flow off the back of Cross Fell (The Death Zone !)..Both Ed and John Wallis's and Tony headed over the back with good height under their belts..I think Tony & John this was the heighest point of their flights.
Johns flight (paul spotted this not me) seemed to be done in quite fresh conditions and his speed across the Death Zone to Alston was about 60kmh, I think this helped..Then Im stuck
All three flights have headed to the heigher ground behind Alston onto the Yad Moss Rd..At this point they go in differing directions. John has taken a route that if I was just looking at a map would I think prefer. How-ever as Ed explains (flying is of course in 3D..feels more like 6D). There was a definate convergence line, differing upper and lower wind directions which influenced his descisions.
I dont know what the conditions of the day were like for John , maybe he can help us out there !
So, thats my amazing insight...5km's here I come
However.... Crossfell in particular, a great catapult of any XC seems to be (tho not the only way) to get your self over to and into the Mellmerby Bowl.
From there you widen your options ..using the shape of the bowl and the nice little cliffs from there you can find the optimum point along its length where the wind / thermals are coming bang up the face . Here..(by the way I am talking from VVVVV limited experience) is the place to fairly reliably get good height. On the few occasions I have ventured over the Back I have always GONE TO SOON and as a result put my self into what I have always assumed is decending air flow off the back of Cross Fell (The Death Zone !)..Both Ed and John Wallis's and Tony headed over the back with good height under their belts..I think Tony & John this was the heighest point of their flights.
Johns flight (paul spotted this not me) seemed to be done in quite fresh conditions and his speed across the Death Zone to Alston was about 60kmh, I think this helped..Then Im stuck
All three flights have headed to the heigher ground behind Alston onto the Yad Moss Rd..At this point they go in differing directions. John has taken a route that if I was just looking at a map would I think prefer. How-ever as Ed explains (flying is of course in 3D..feels more like 6D). There was a definate convergence line, differing upper and lower wind directions which influenced his descisions.
I dont know what the conditions of the day were like for John , maybe he can help us out there !
So, thats my amazing insight...5km's here I come
30m Breaststroke
Cookery MVQ level 1
Cookery MVQ level 1
-
- Chatty
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:34 pm
- Full Name: Ed Cleasby
- Location: Ingleton
- Contact:
OK ...... so over Alston I missed the Wallis helipad; but I was high and didn't have my glasses on. A few points ... I always probably (over analyse) my flights; sometimes the mistakes are blindingly obvious a few times less so. Bear in mind that I'm fairly new to paragliding but as I've flown longer than Misk I should be a lot better pilot than I am. My learning curve has levelled off and I ain't sure why ..... maybe a bit thick.
Some points: (I also drove off to Otterburn to pick up Cav so this includes some of his points .... it was a long drive back).
* a single photo doesn't say much .... you need the panoramic view and then a bit more for the feel of the day and the sort of air you are in.
* incidentally, I take photos of the ground/sky/route ahead not so much for my album as to study them later. I often take them at decision points to beat myself with i guess .... what should i have done? What options?
* at height 5500 to 6800 I was flying the sky rather than the ground
* Cav had got to Hayden Bridge as I was in the convergence. He had then got low, turned south (for about 10k) on slowing progress before having a mind change and going back NE. It got a lot better once away from the influences of sea air ..... airspace became his problem at the end.
* aside from the sun over Alston it looked very shaded off to the NE .....
* convergence isn't a nice straight highway in the sky. I've met it a few times this year and it seems to duck and dive and can be a bugger to follow. Big ups equal big downs if you get it wrong.
* I had never met convergence on Cross Fell until last year and then didn't recognise it and the way it works on there. It's actually consistent and very predictable in my opinion.
* I'm used to dealing with SW sea breezes and their effects being a south Lakelander ..... NW convergences are still a learning thing for me.
* I knew where I wanted to go but the lack of sun, a growing headwind and some searching found little ..... I suspect the lower cooler north wind was just killing off the thermals.
* this was a very safe day to fly near clouds to the south of the convergence; getting through was more tricky ... Mike said he found a gap and headed through.
* it seems weird that Tony and I passed as ships in the night going in opposite directions. I wish i'd taken his route as two gliders would have had a better chance than one. But I'm a bit stubborn and had a plan to head for the cloud seen in the last photo over the head of the valley behind him ...(?) cos it had a more active base I guess.
* I think I'm patient but always find that past 20 then 30 then 40k it always seems to get easier and easier ..... it's getting past that 20 - 30k. I'm the 30k kid!
* when i took off I actually intended to try for triangle ..... mid way towards Alston, and very high i actually turned back; I think it would have fallen victim to the NW wind now wrecking the lift on the hill.
* getting really high is nice; it gives you time but can breed complacency
* paragliders can lose height awfully fast on unstable days. If you're high and still going at 4/5pm you can float along way .... in late afternoon air.
* I think half the key is the right hill; leave at the right time (there's a best time slot) and with a few other pilots have a bit of experience and a degree of good fortune.
* like cricket stats ..... Cav has a success rate of about 80%; mine is about 20%. I'd be happy to get it to 40% .... but I'm not sure how.
Well ......... done that to death. This w/e could be interesting.
Some points: (I also drove off to Otterburn to pick up Cav so this includes some of his points .... it was a long drive back).
* a single photo doesn't say much .... you need the panoramic view and then a bit more for the feel of the day and the sort of air you are in.
* incidentally, I take photos of the ground/sky/route ahead not so much for my album as to study them later. I often take them at decision points to beat myself with i guess .... what should i have done? What options?
* at height 5500 to 6800 I was flying the sky rather than the ground
* Cav had got to Hayden Bridge as I was in the convergence. He had then got low, turned south (for about 10k) on slowing progress before having a mind change and going back NE. It got a lot better once away from the influences of sea air ..... airspace became his problem at the end.
* aside from the sun over Alston it looked very shaded off to the NE .....
* convergence isn't a nice straight highway in the sky. I've met it a few times this year and it seems to duck and dive and can be a bugger to follow. Big ups equal big downs if you get it wrong.
* I had never met convergence on Cross Fell until last year and then didn't recognise it and the way it works on there. It's actually consistent and very predictable in my opinion.
* I'm used to dealing with SW sea breezes and their effects being a south Lakelander ..... NW convergences are still a learning thing for me.
* I knew where I wanted to go but the lack of sun, a growing headwind and some searching found little ..... I suspect the lower cooler north wind was just killing off the thermals.
* this was a very safe day to fly near clouds to the south of the convergence; getting through was more tricky ... Mike said he found a gap and headed through.
* it seems weird that Tony and I passed as ships in the night going in opposite directions. I wish i'd taken his route as two gliders would have had a better chance than one. But I'm a bit stubborn and had a plan to head for the cloud seen in the last photo over the head of the valley behind him ...(?) cos it had a more active base I guess.
* I think I'm patient but always find that past 20 then 30 then 40k it always seems to get easier and easier ..... it's getting past that 20 - 30k. I'm the 30k kid!
* when i took off I actually intended to try for triangle ..... mid way towards Alston, and very high i actually turned back; I think it would have fallen victim to the NW wind now wrecking the lift on the hill.
* getting really high is nice; it gives you time but can breed complacency
* paragliders can lose height awfully fast on unstable days. If you're high and still going at 4/5pm you can float along way .... in late afternoon air.
* I think half the key is the right hill; leave at the right time (there's a best time slot) and with a few other pilots have a bit of experience and a degree of good fortune.
* like cricket stats ..... Cav has a success rate of about 80%; mine is about 20%. I'd be happy to get it to 40% .... but I'm not sure how.
Well ......... done that to death. This w/e could be interesting.
sedit qui timiut ne non succederet
- John Wallis
- Seasoned
- Posts: 4072
- Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:17 pm
- Location: Northumberland
If anyone has a few minutes spare go to the small hill above Alston with the aerial on it and take note of the land mass coming down from the Crossfell range. As people tell you visualise water coming down and what it would do then you can see the picture of what the air is doing as it descends all the way to Alston. This Alston ridge generally works as a trigger and well worth heading for. Another point worth noting if you leave from Melmerby and lose it over the back it's worth heading for the rising ground near the main road you can often get zeros for long glides but rarely anything worth circling in which just might get you to Alston. But hey I've been on that moor more times than Miller's broken uprights.
- ron freeman
- Seasoned
- Posts: 3147
- Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:50 pm
- Full Name: Ron Freeman CFI
- Location: Cheviot hills, Northumberland
- Contact:
When to go !
The most important decision on going XC is picking the best time to go over the back ! we can all thermal to cloud base but there is no point going for it when the sky down wind is not full of nice little clouds scattered over the place.
This is the bit that takes time & patience to learn when you are flying and not on the ground...
Try to pick a day when good cloud streets are forming ! this is the most consistant way to acheive good xc distance's.
Ed's XC flight...
I would flown along the convergence line (inland) as far as it took me... then it would fizzle out leaving a south west wind to continue XC to the north east coast, then picking up an easterly convergence to head north up to Bewick upon tweed
This is the bit that takes time & patience to learn when you are flying and not on the ground...
Try to pick a day when good cloud streets are forming ! this is the most consistant way to acheive good xc distance's.
Ed's XC flight...
I would flown along the convergence line (inland) as far as it took me... then it would fizzle out leaving a south west wind to continue XC to the north east coast, then picking up an easterly convergence to head north up to Bewick upon tweed
Last edited by ron freeman on Fri May 21, 2010 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Maximise your time & dosh do both Hanggliding & Paragliding
- Bradleisure
- Chatty
- Posts: 423
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:53 pm
Ed ur far 2 hard on yourself! I guess u shud stop trying 2 chase Cav & Kitts distances & start beating them!!! :O
Tnx 4 sharing this stuff is gr8.
Think u were right 2 turn bak luk @ my drift in the Alston thermal. Who knows we could of had a massive triangle with th@ base.
Hope u all av a gr8 time @ N54S!
& as Ron says there's a time 2 leave then hill. THink XFell in SW it's as soon as possible for those th@ get 2 the hill after lunch!
Tnx 4 sharing this stuff is gr8.
Think u were right 2 turn bak luk @ my drift in the Alston thermal. Who knows we could of had a massive triangle with th@ base.
Hope u all av a gr8 time @ N54S!
& as Ron says there's a time 2 leave then hill. THink XFell in SW it's as soon as possible for those th@ get 2 the hill after lunch!
Fly Safe & Fly Far