Are you as good as the glider you fly?

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:12 pm

Found these words of wisdom below and they make complete sense to me, it's worth a read.

Written by Rob Whittal

http://www.flyozone.com/paragliders/en/ ... s-for-you/

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:42 am

the words were said to me in the very begining by my instructor, are you happy flying the wing? and if you are then you will most likely fly it well, this was the sigma 6.

hours has nothing to do with whether or not you will ever have the abuility to fly a 2 or a 2-3. this is something you closely have to ask yourself, if you are a nervous and twitchy person then definately not. if however that when things turn to shit even just rough air you are properly shiting yourself and likely to do the wrong thing in an event then fly an easier wing.the myth with a modern 2-3 is they are best recovered by doing nothing untill it is ready to be recovered the key is not to let it get out of shape in the first place. this was what i was told by a serial class pilot on recovery of 2-3

i have pprobably now had most experience of changing wings and yet i have never felt less safe on a 2-3 than on a 1-2 infact the latter has been oftern the case. the key is the conditions you fly in and when and when not to fly. when flying a 2-3 now i will probably fly the safest as i will always give myself good ground clearance apart from take off and landing yet when i get on my 2 i get complaicent and this is when you are at most risk, as ground clearance is what you need even on a 1 if it goes wrong.

fly with what your happy on this is why we fly after all we all know an unhappy pilot is a dangerous pilot.

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:53 pm

Sorry Gary got to disagree... there are many a good DV 1 wings out there that will give you lots of confidence and will be much safer to fly until you build up valuable experience. The pilots who want to upgrade far to quickly are the ones who are having big scares and end up jacking in the sport.

There is no substitute for airtime & experience for making the right decisions quickly ! this take time and lots of it.

There are pilots who do get away with up-grading to early but I bet they have had many a tale to tell and close shaves.

This also goes for hanggliding, instructors pass on their excellent advise & experience then the student up grades after only a few hours ! they give themselves a big fright and give up the sport...

People have more money these days to spend on exciting sports like ours but they don't want to put the time in thats neccessary to become a good safe pilot.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:17 pm

i should of frased hours has nothing to do with it

what i mean is it would not matter how many hours some people have, as they will never be suitable to fly hotter wings.

being one who moved up quickly to a dhv 1-2 early i would not recomend a new pilot to start on one or even move up to one unless you have a lot of confidence, and experience. as the diferance in feel will be the biggest change of all your upgrades, and if you are not super confident then you will scare youeself.

be warned if in doubt test fly 1 first in thermic conditions and see what you think and if it scares you dont move up as it will not benefiit you

cheers gary

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:40 pm

the question in hand are you as good as your glider or our you good enough to fly the glider you fly safely.

this is the diferance as i know i am not as good as my glider but i am good enough to fly the glider i fly.

i am going into my fifth season in a few months and will be not far short of a 100 hours a year average so does give me some experience. though a lot to learn still, i may not of done an official siv but have done it all unasisted so there you have it.

how many out there can honasly say there better than there glider?

not many but yet we all choose gliders we can fly because we want too.

you know you bought the rong glider when you say i wont fly in this today but i would on my old glider, as if you are ready to move up then you should be ready too fly in any conditions you used to. IMHO

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:51 pm

how many out there can honasly say there better than there glider?

Me........Just my glider doesn't know it yet

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:04 pm

you see the problem in the uk is height so we spend most of the time going back and forward in ridge lift with the odd thermal. but to truly know your wing you will need acro and lots of it or how other will you realy be better than your wing? i mean how many have done proper nose down spirals on every wing? wingovered sats loopps symetrics tucks.

we just dont get the height to truly know are wings in the uk

Misk · Post by **Misk** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:49 pm

You wouldn't sugest learning about your wing by taking it outside the manufacturers recommended flight envelope would you Gary?

simon · Post by **simon** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:22 am

are you as good as the glider you fly? who knows, everyone is different. we all do what we are comfortable with. but the problem isn't a height one, its not even a problem at all. the real trick is to fly the optimum wing at the maximum of your abilities and no further to get the maximum enjoyment. and some things come easier to some than others, we should all try to work within ourselves whilst still carefully pushing our limits. and as for the idea that you have to kick the acro arse out of your wing to progress thats just daft, i don't ever remember guthrie doing acro, nose down spirals or sats but he still has a fairly good idea of what to do, and which way to point a glider. the boy can fly

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:49 am

this is my point, how can you say you are better than your wing if you can not take it to the edge of its capabuilitys. as for noose down spirals i think to learn to spiral and come out. it is the only manover that you are likely to have to use in an emergancy in clowd suck. i have done the full stall b lines etc but when the shit hits the fan then spiral is the only way out. cross country flying is only one aspect of flying and even novicr pilots without any glider skills manage to do massive xc on the right day in the right place. but the novice pilot can not stumble accross a sat a proper wingover and other acro manovers. this is what i mean flying is so diverse and can come in diferent forms, yet the measure of someones abulity is always measured by how far you can fly?

gives you food for thought on what makes you a good pilot?

gordie · Post by **gordie** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:00 am

gary stenhouse wrote:.the myth with a modern 2-3 is they are best recovered by doing nothing untill it is ready to be recovered the key is not to let it get out of shape in the first place.

That will be the myth you belived in for the first few years of your flying career despite every experienced pilot you know trying to tell you other wise. Glad you have finally listened to reason, now all you need to do is digest what Robbie says and you might make a half decent pilot

gordie · Post by **gordie** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:13 am

gary stenhouse wrote:you see the problem in the uk is height so we spend most of the time going back and forward in ridge lift with the odd thermal.

Got to disagree Gary, if you are a half decent pilot on a half decent day you should easily get high in th U.K. just look at the national x.c. league for proof.

gary stenhouse wrote:"but to truly know your wing you will need acro and lots of it or how other will you realy be better than your wing? i mean how many have done proper nose down spirals on every wing? wingovered sats loopps symetrics tucks."

However you are not far wrong on this point mate. To many pilots just boat about on thier wings and are about as active as a bag of spuds. You will only learn how to fly your glider realy well by throwing it around and getting use to its dynamic handling. I would not take it as far as acro but certainly wingovers and 'dolphines' are great excerises to help get to know your wing. If you are not sure if you know your wing well then can you honestly say you know how to feel and tell where the stall and spin points are? You do not need hieght to find this out infact the ground being very close can be a great referance piont.

(I would adivise having an experience pilot/ coach with you for advice whilst practising any of the above)

AlastairW · Post by **AlastairW** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:19 am

"The best pilot is the one who is having most fun"

A quote from another leading paraglider pilot.

I am actually going through the process of possibly changing my wing at present, and have been flying a number of DHV2 wings.

But the reality is that I am probably just as well of with the Epsilon. She can fly cross country, turn on a sixpence (which a high aspect wing cant do), do some acro over Olu Deniz, and generally be FUN to fly.

So applying the original quote, she is probably the best for me!

If I was intent on flying XC in this country, then the performance of a 2 on bar may give me a better chance of distance, but in reality how often do we do that?

antobaird · Post by **antobaird** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:09 am

Don't you dare upgrade Alistair. I'm looking forwared to this year's trip already and I don't want to be stuck in the retrieve bus while you glide away to Namibia

Gary - Some of us had some invigorating "involuntary acro" in our recent trip. You'd love South Africa - I guess it would be a great place to "get to know" your Niviuk Peak ?

AlastairW · Post by **AlastairW** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:07 pm

Just for you I wont then Anto.....!

One of the most memorable days was that epic climb out together from Koringberg to over 8 grand, wing tip to wing tip at times, and whooping and hollering with the fun of it.....

Kitt Rudd · Post by **Kitt Rudd** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:27 pm

Going xc is really about working out where the next climb is and a good 1/2 will climb as good as anything else on the market.
Unfortunately a lot of aspiring xc pilots up grade there wings which may help them on the glide but it dose not make them better xc pilots. In fact I would go so far to say that it simply masks their inabilities to fly distance really well.
I know I fly a high performing wing and this is for the reason of competitions- where speed is a major factor, but I also learnt to go xc on a wing with less that 5:1 real glide so had to think about making the connections to the next piece of expected lift more efficiently. In general pilots look to upgrade simply because they want to keep up with the 'Jones's ' and not because they have really began to out perform their wing. Maybe with the credit crunch about pilots should make this a new years resolution to practice enough to be able to honestly say I have upgraded because I am now outperforming my wing' except of course if you are considering buying a certain Czech brand

Kitt

Bradleisure · Post by **Bradleisure** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:25 pm

Thought I'd just chip in with my 2 penneth.

Having upgraded fairly rapidly to the beautiful Czech I currently fly, and with an eventful outing to SA under our belts I can safely say I'm pleased I chose my new partner. I haven't skipped a rating, it's just been in a relatively short time.

I'm not saying it's for everyone, nor even a good idea, just that I'm very happy with my choice.

I also have to admit that my longest flight to date in the UK was on a 1/2, however probably the most enjoyable and technical flights have been on the Czech.

My simplistic take on the different experiences that different rated wings have is that;

if you want to relax and take photos or eat your pack lunch, in all conditions then the lower is a better choice,

and if you don't mind having to keep your hands on the controls when the going gets slightly bumpy then higher might be for you.

Reasons to move up the ratings might be that you are using the speed bar a lot, and using it escape sink and not just into wind. This is where I've noticed the biggest performance increase.

At the end of the day we all do this for FUN and I'm pretty sure no one has ever not had fun by flying a wing that was lower rated.

Bradleisure · Post by **Bradleisure** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:30 pm

Oh, just read it back and realised something was missing for those who don't know me...

You can't beat a good SIV for performance and safety increases!

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:01 pm

stop making magazines and tempting me i mean the joneses i think i over took them years ago.

why do i keep on changing? if i new that i would stop, but an honest anwer would be boredam and depresion from the onslaught of hassle. it makes me happy to buy wings and it makes the companys happy who i buy them off.

the one reason i dont buy them for is to keep up with the competition,as i am not in direct competition with any one person or care. i buy them because i can and that is the plain and simple fact. we have to be realistic in the fact we are not retired and full time pilots and in them words you are never going to outgrow any wing. i change my cars as much and even my underpants yet i have never out grown them.

with the luming resesion then the reality of outgrowing my wing is likely to be a reality, though untill this time i can honestly say that i will change wings up sometimes and down otheres. because its fun.

cheers Gary

Post by **colin keightley** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm

Can I just say the original article made sense and seemed good advice and that really personal views on this subject are just that, Personal.

Im sure there are a lot of low airtimers watching this thread which is slowley straying from its original point in true NHPC forum fashion which maybe starting to confuse some people.

Gary as long as you are happy with what you are doing then why waste your time trying to justify yourself. However its probably not a good idea to tell low airtimers to push the envelope (I know you didnt specify them but they will include themselves in the generalisation).

I wonder who will reply first

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:24 pm

even my underpants yet i have never out grown them.

Hmmmmm?
I'm fast outgrowing mine, anyone got any answers?

Kitt Rudd · Post by **Kitt Rudd** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:29 pm

Gary/Tony- I was not making any presumptions or having a cheap jibe at any one .
Tony you may not have known it but I checked you out when you first got in touch re wings.
Gary I would never have put you down as the sensitive type you are not getting a guilty conscience are we . Seriously though the original article is a very experienced pilots view on how the rest of us can be tempted to jump onto a wings which we either cannot handle properly or that for the amount of airtime we really get (any this not about accruing 100hrs + on a coastal site or through T2B's - again not making suggestions about anyone here) in a year . Every time I am offered the latest proto (which is not that often) I have to ask my self some serious questions to remind myself that I am not simply on an ego trip but that I'm still in tune with my id.

Kitt

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:16 pm

All very good reading but nobody has mentioned the harness yet ? I see pilots changing their harness as much as their wing, is this good or bad ?

Surley to fly in harmony with your kit is the first thing you need to get right, (wing & harness) then the real task lies ahead - wether to fly or not ! then learning how to get the best out of the days conditions.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:17 pm

no had time on my hands and was having fun posting, not touchy at all now its just good to put things in there to wind paople up when theres no flying.

cheers Gary

Bradleisure · Post by **Bradleisure** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:23 pm

Jibe away...

For me I love it when a post develops as this one has, if the majority disagree then tell me to post off.

Think we can all learn from these, even if it's just as has been said to ask ourselves some questions as to why we do this amazing thing we do.

Only a fool would try to dispute the fact that the linked article is written by one of the real greats of free flight.

I'd love to here others discuss their transition from wing to wing up or down and what they experienced.

With any luck our own sky gods, and they know who they are (old timers

), will chip in with words of wisdom to correct any miss guided comments.

Besides the weathers no good for even the Bobcat at the moment. Perhaps I'll climb a hill and play airplanes with my jacket like when I was young...

Kitt Rudd · Post by **Kitt Rudd** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:10 pm

Agree Ron regarding harnesses. Changing your harness set up nevermind actual harness can alter the character of your wing. I would bet that a large proportion of us are actualy flying our wings outside of certification.
In many ways I think getting your harness correctly set up is just (if not more)as important as having the right wing. However a harness usually stays with the pilot a bit longer than a wing seems to and once set up does not get altered. Thankfully buying a harness usualy means that the buyer first hangs in one and so allowing the seller to help with the set up.
I sold a pod harness this weekend and easily spent over an hour with the customer ensuring they had it properly set up for them and more importantly they knew what ech adjustment strap does for the geometry of the setup.

Anyhow it's amazing how busy the phone gets after posting a comment or two on this Forum

.
Kitt

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:18 pm

I'm glad this thread has developed because I really thought they were some of the best words/advice I've read since starting paragliding a mere 2.5 years ago.

During my HG days I remember watching Micheal Carnet and Andy Napolitan taking these bags of washing out of their cars during a League on Rhiw Gham in Wales circa 1988. They took off then spun upside down in their harness' and soared around. Lots of us said what a waste of time they won't catch on....However not long after that the man who wrote the article Robbie Whitall and another top pilot John Pendry went over to paragliding and the rest is history. The gliders they flew at that time were probably not very safe at all, but through testing and development by people such as these we now have paragliders that are fit for all types of ability and all types of pilot. As Robbie has stated it's up to the individual to take a good look at themselves and chose sensibly.

My headbanging days are well over, the older I get makes me well aware of my mortality and the last thing I want is to be under a wing that needs much skill to keep stable or need cat like reactions if it goes wrong. But hey that's just me and that's my opinion, the really good pilots can and do handle much more sophisticated wings and from what I've learned over the last 2.5 years is when these glider go wrong they can kill you if you can't or don't react in the correct manner. These wings are for the advanced and/or skillful pilot.

If you are new to the sport or even if you're not read Robbie's words and take them on board.....He knows what he's on about he's been the best in the world in both disciplines.

JW

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:08 pm

I think ill stay out of this one.
Why dont we pay garry to go on holliday so we can all fly again?

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:38 pm

i must agree that harness can play as much a part of how you fly. and get the combination right and all feels right get it wrongand you may be changing your wing over your harness.

my advice as i stayed 3 years with my second harness, never change a wing and harness togeather always use your existing harness on your new wing untill you are happy with it. then when you are happy you can try your new harness. do it the other way round and you just might think its your glider that is wrong when it is actualy the harness.

cheers gary

NHPC Private and Public Forum

Are you as good as the glider you fly?

Are you as good as the glider you fly?

Sorry...

Wings' what about your harness ?